Stallion Owners Misrepresenting Size

[blton9th]

I hear ya Fen! My gosh it sure can be disastrous for the pony breeders!

[BelladonnaLily]

And it certainly isn't limited to stallions! Our pony was advertised at 13h. I doubt anyone ever really measured him. I didn't care because his main purpose is to be a really cute short stirrup mount. When we measured him this year for 4H, he is 12.2 3/4 on his tiptoes. And this was after 4-5 months of steady work and 3 weeks after a trim. Not even close to 13 h. We could probably get him to measure as a small if we wanted to try really hard If it had been a big deal, we should have measured him before buying but it just goes to show that we should ALL own a stick

[Sonesta]

Wow about measuring sticks all being different lengths! I mean, I can see a dishonest person perhaps sawing off a couple inches on the bottom, but you'd think they'd all measure the same when newly purchased!

Where, exactly, does one BUY an "approved USEF" measuring stick?

[VirginiaBred]

Wow about measuring sticks all being different lengths! I mean, I can see a dishonest person perhaps sawing off a couple inches on the bottom, but you'd think they'd all measure the same when newly purchased!

Where, exactly, does one BUY an "approved USEF" measuring stick?

http://www.usef.org/documents/compet...ementStick.pdf


Kinda pricey, but a necessary expense.

[Fairview Horse Center]

But, as DB noticed, stallions "grow" or "shrink" depending on their moods

It is not just stallions. When I bought my first horse, 35 years ago, he was just a yearling. I was totally obsessed with his growth. I measured him daily - sometimes twice daily. Some days I would arrive at the barn, and be really depressed as he had sticked small. Then before I left, he was SO much bigger. The opposite too. I drove myself crazy. He finished at 16.1 on his "big days". Then later in life, they shrink. He was about 15.2 when he passed away last year at 31. Nevada's butt is in the 15.2 and a bit range, so he looks smaller than he is. Everyone says Ollie is SO much bigger, but he really is not. He just always "holds" himself bigger.

I think about 10? years ago, many of the pony people were upset as they were remeasuring them at the shows. Different environment, ponies were "up", and sticked differently.

The most honest thing a stallion owner can do is to know what their stallion sires. Nevada adds height, and in many cases, a LOT. He sires like he is 16.2-3. I would LOVE for him to sire ponies, and he has attracted many people that want to breed their tiny pony mares to him. I turn them away. The ones that have gone ahead and tried, have all ended up with them over growing - even out of small, smalls.

[KimPeterson]

Could I have a horse measured at a competition ? I have one that is on the edge between two sizes and would like an official word ... do they do that for horses (non ponies?) ?

[Formosus]

how hard can it be?

How about taking a stick and a measuring tape and simply marking off the distance in inches: 60 inches is 15 hands, 64 is 16.

It just boggles the mind that store bought measuring stick could be that different. An inch is an inch! If carpenter and house builders used our "stick" and our variable "inches" for measuring houses would fall down!!

I totally understand about sometime measure slightly different with one stick because of the way the horse stands but this difference in measuring stick is just beyond me!

Personally I stand my horses square on the cement and I ask someone to give them a carrot at ground level. With their neck held down I can clearly see what the highest point of the wither is and that is what I measure. I see changes of 1/2 inch sometime depending on fat and muscle but rarely more then that.
Oh and my measuring stick was checked against a measuring tape (the carpenter style)

[VirginiaBred]

The "Official Stick" is what everything is measured against, so to speak.....which is why it's the "official" stick!

The stallion owners I know have even offered to measure their stallions for the prospective mare owner. Awesome!

It becomes more of a problem with the warmbloods, don't you think due to the growth coming later.

Some of the imported warmbloods can give you more height than you thought, so knowing the pedigree sizes and what your stallion's get end us as really does help, as Fairview stated.

[Texarkana]

It is not just stallions. When I bought my first horse, 35 years ago, he was just a yearling. I was totally obsessed with his growth. I measured him daily - sometimes twice daily. Some days I would arrive at the barn, and be really depressed as he had sticked small. Then before I left, he was SO much bigger. The opposite too. I drove myself crazy. He finished at 16.1 on his "big days". Then later in life, they shrink. He was about 15.2 when he passed away last year at 31.

That is very true that they shrink. I had a older TB mare who was 16.1 even with a USEF stick on a level concrete pad when I got her. At 27 years old, she was 15.2, same stick and same concrete pad.

[Dune]

I started a thread about this awhile ago and mentioned that I thought it would be a good idea to get pony stallions carded. A LOT of these imported GRP stallions ARE NOT 14.2!!!!!....regardless of the fact that they advertise them as such.

[Ridge Runner]

I guess the fixation with size just amazes me...like the one person said...everyone had to have a 17:2 hander at one point but now people are thankfully looking at smaller horses...smaller at 16-16:2 or so still being very large when a large horse to your breed is 15 hands. Life would be SO much simpler if kids (and adults) could just ride a horse/pony appropriate to their size or age and one inch this way or that way was irrelevant... It would be better for breeders too to have some leeway so the dreaded oversize pony or smaller horse is not a disaster to their pocketbooks. I absolutely hate the term hony and peoples dislike or avoidance of small horses...talk about predjudice! I shudder to think how many wonderful 14:3-15:1 handers have been passed over due to ridiculous size rules or concepts. Pwynn's Teddy has proven that it ain't the size that matters...but the heart and the stride.

[Black Forest]

This has got to be a problem for breeding for jumpers or dressage also, correct? You need as large as possible (or you would like to achieve that)..

Well, no . You do NOT need as large as possible but the US market appears to THINK that you do, hence Warmblood stallions appear to have a curious habit of growing on the plane over....

In fact in Germany they have long realised that oversized horses (frankly anything over 17hh) are NOT that desirable in terms of athletic ability or long term soundness.

I once took the trouble of going through the whole of the selected sires of Germany book and there were a grand total of 3 that were over 1.70 (16.3hh)

Frankly I have a feeling that some stallion owners feel that their stallion won't get the mares if he is advertised at his real (perfectly good size in terms of real, not perceived, athletic ability and performance capacity) hence an inch is added here or there.

VERY few people need a horse over 16.2hh - in fact the majority would be best matched with a 16hh horse, especially ladies. But as long as the market demands Nelly the Elephant ........

[VirginiaBred]

Frankly I have a feeling that some stallion owners feel that their stallion won't get the mares if he is advertised at his real (perfectly good size in terms of real, not perceived, athletic ability and performance capacity) hence an inch is added here or there.........

Or subtracted. Remember the pony breeders.............

Frankly, it's very disturbing to know stallions that are advertised as pony stallions and they most definitely are not.

[poetaperegrinus]

So...these "official" measuring sticks...are they made out of gold? Cause like, for $350, I'd be expecting something awful special...

[Fenway]

I'm all for some kind of official pony stallion height measurement. I think it would be difficult, to say the least, but worth it, IMO. There is enough dishonesty in this business--maybe we can cut down on some of it.

[Black Forest]

Or subtracted. Remember the pony breeders.............

Frankly, it's very disturbing to know stallions that are advertised as pony stallions and they most definitely are not.

Yes, you're absolutely right! With the ponies it is virtually vital !!! I know a "Pony" former jumping mare that holds a lifetime certificate stating that she is 148cm (14.2hh) - when she got wise to the fact that her child-riders could not MAKE her jump round 1.20 m courses she started to refuse reliably (ie never finish a course any more) and was eventually sold to a small lady to do Dressage (and she does that VERY well) Her *REAL* height is a hair under 15.1hh .....

[jilltx]

I guess the fixation with size just amazes me...like the one person said...everyone had to have a 17:2 hander at one point but now people are thankfully looking at smaller horses...smaller at 16-16:2 or so still being very large when a large horse to your breed is 15 hands. Life would be SO much simpler if kids (and adults) could just ride a horse/pony appropriate to their size or age and one inch this way or that way was irrelevant... It would be better for breeders too to have some leeway so the dreaded oversize pony or smaller horse is not a disaster to their pocketbooks. I absolutely hate the term hony and peoples dislike or avoidance of small horses...talk about predjudice! I shudder to think how many wonderful 14:3-15:1 handers have been passed over due to ridiculous size rules or concepts. Pwynn's Teddy has proven that it ain't the size that matters...but the heart and the stride.

I understand that it's more important for ponies because there are regulations and limits within their divisions, but some people get REALLY hung up on height, and I've never understood that.

I vividly remember a conversatin on this very board with a breeder who was "not interested" in a mare with GREAT bloodlines and nice conformation who would "fit perfectly" into her breeding program (her words) because she was 15.3 hands and not 16.0. I mean c'mon!

She eventually bought the mare (and I'm sure would deny the conversation) and appears happy with her.

Is this "height bias" an American thing? I've noticed several of my German and British friends just don't seem as concerned with the height thing. They worry more about good conformation, nice gaits and a good brain as well as being a good match with the rider.

PS...350.00 for an "OFFICIAL" stick? Me thinks someone is making quite a profit. For that price I want a USEF official to come with it to make CERTAIN it's being done properly. The stick is, after all, only as accurate as the person doing the measuring.

[pintopiaffe]

The most honest thing a stallion owner can do is to know what their stallion sires.

It has been difficult for me to HONESTLY market to pony people because out of a 14h Morab mare my guy sired 16h. (no, really, with a real stick. ) Since the height is not quantitative, crossed to my 16h mare, he's had a couple of 15.3 & 16, and apparantly one 14.2 (though she was *just* three at that measurment, haven't heard where she is at four.) The Trak mare crossed w/ him same thing, a few big/size of mares, and one smaller.

He does have some rather big horses close up (*Alladdinn, etc.) so it's not all that predictable. BUT--I try to let folks ride him, and feel how big he rides... his kids do too. If they take up your leg and are comfortable, what does the actual height matter? (Except, of course, ponies) We're just really in a 'tween' market, where when I was saying 15h got us more interest. I'll stick with being honest though.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Even with gettign heights correct for the ponies, many grow over. Why does there have to be a "gap" size. Why can't horses be like ponies in Small, Medium, and Large Horse Hunters? And not only for the Adults, but these kids outgrowing their ponies should not have to make the jump over no man's land.

[VirginiaBred]

PS...350.00 for an "OFFICIAL" stick? Me thinks someone is making quite a profit. For that price I want a USEF official to come with it to make CERTAIN it's being done properly. The stick is, after all, only as accurate as the person doing the measuring.

That was hilarious (and SO true) but I will say we bought out USEF stick from the then AHSA and the stick is still exactly the same.........price and all, and that was almost 15 years ago. No inflation there (and YES, we are talking about the USEF.........faint!).