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Line breeding (?) Mare's dam sire and potential stallion's sire the same.

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  • Line breeding (?) Mare's dam sire and potential stallion's sire the same.

    Two questions ... no make it three.

    1. This would be considered line breeding, correct?

    2. The mare's dam sire and the sire of the stallion I'm considering are one and the same. Is this too close?

    3. Is the viability of the cross more dependant upon the specific stallion? e.g., Stallion A has a history of being frequently line bred with good results, as opposed to Stallion B, where there are few, if any, good results.

    Comments? Observations?
    "For God hates utterly
    The bray of bragging tongues."
    Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders

  • #2
    The Trakehner Verband certainly understands linebreeding since it is closed registry,

    I have one imported mare who has the same stallion, Kassiber, in the positions you describe.

    She turned out fine and her kids are nice.

    I think the better answer would be stallion specific.

    Lucy has multiple crosses to Impuls and Ibikus which was a very successful cross.
    www.oakhollowstable.blogspot.com

    Comment


    • #3
      The resulting foal from that cross would have 2 "free" generations, which is acceptable. I think what you have to look at is the individuals and what they bring to the table themselves as far as their conformation, temperment, movement, etc. as well as what the stallion that is being used as the linebreeding component has produced along those same lines. You will find the good as well as the negative will be more strongly influenced and expressed by using this strategy. I endorse it if it is done with discretion.
      PennyG

      Comment


      • #4
        There have been alot of posts about linebreeding on this forum -- a search should turn up all kinds of info.

        As one of the posters said, it really depends much more on the quality of the horse (usually a stallion, but I've seen linebreeding to mares as well) than where it's placed.

        The Arab world has used linebreeding VERY successfully -- often breeding sire to granddaughter and turning out great horses.

        But as one example, the linebreeding to Impressive in the QH world brought HYPP into the breed.

        So you really have to do alot of research into the horse in question. I linebred to Rubinstein last year with the resulting foal's grandsire & great-grandsire being R I. Outstanding foal.

        I also have an Arab filly with something like 8 crosses to Abu Farwa and she is also outstanding.Good luck.

        Comment


        • #5
          I think it is really hard to generalize about these things. Different bloodlines and/or breeds can have very different tolerance levels to the various degrees of inbreeding and linebreeding.
          Liz
          Ainninn House Stud
          Irish Draughts and Connemaras
          Co. Westmeath, Ireland

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Ah! As usual, ask a serious question on CoTh and the replies, more often than not, are very thought-provoking!

            Ok, the common ancestor is Landadel. I've had a thing about him for a long time... I think he was extraordinary, AND, he died so very young ... was it just 10 or 12?

            This is a comment on him by The Horse Magazine's section on great stallions:

            Sadly for the Stallion Commissions, no one remembers it when they got it right - but everyone remembers when they get it wrong - and the Holstein Commission got it seriously wrong when they rejected Landadel. Thomas Mohr, the director of the Maas J. Hell Stud where he was born, remembers:

            “Landadel, was not accepted for the stallion licensing at Neumünster by the Holsteiner Commission, they said he was too light – a good sport horse not a stallion!

            So then he was leased to Böckmanns, and they bred with him for about ten years before he died, and every year he was in the top three for jumping sires, but he also bred dressage horses. Most of the foals went to S class. Calvaro and Landadel were from the same family – Landadel’s dam was Calvaro’s grand mother.”

            “The Landadel mares were very typey, with a lot of blood. The geldings and stallions were a bit bigger, not so Thoroughbred looking as the mares. In the back of Landadel’s pedigree is Farnese, and Farnese is very heavy.”

            Right from the start, Landadel was something special. He was champion of his 100 day test at Medingen in 1985.

            Landadel is one of those rarest of creatures - a stallion who sires top dressage as well as jumping progeny. Indeed at the 2001 World Cups, Landadel was unique in producing representatives in both the dressage and jumping finals, with the exquisite Leondardo da Vinci in the dressage with Gonnelien Rothenberger, and, in the jumping, Helena Weinberg's Little Gun.
            In the 1999/2000 WBFSH standings, Landadel had 14 representatives on the jumping list and three on the dressage.

            Landadel is regarded as the most important son of Landgraf - and carries a double cross of the great Ladykiller, and bears out the theory that Landgraf worked best with mares with a high proportion of Thoroughbred blood. Landlord 4 and Lausbub 148 were out of mares by Tin Rocco xx. Lanciano is out of a mare by Marlon xx and Lucky Luke is out of a mare by Fra Diavalo (by Frivol xx). Landadel’s grand-dam is 3/4 Thoroughbred (Ladykiller xx / Gauner xx).His dam’s sire, Farnese was famed for this extravagent trot, and was used as a demonstration stallion by the Holsteiner Verband - besides the movement, the line was noted for its great substance and good conformation. Farnese’s son Farmer was on the 1984 German Olympic showjumping team with Franke Sloothaak.

            Landadel’s stallion sons include Le Cou Cou, Landfriese I, Landstern, Landjonker, Landclassic, Landkoenig and Landor S. Landadel is the sire of four Oldenburg Stallion licensing champions: Lord Kemm, Lagoheidor, Landkaiser and Laudaatio. Perhaps his most famous performer has been the mare, Lady Weingard, who was ridden in her competition career by Markus Beerbaum.
            I think what is most interesting here, is how individual stallions capture our imagination. I guess this is just an intellectual exercise... but I sure do love this line!!
            "For God hates utterly
            The bray of bragging tongues."
            Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders

            Comment


            • #7
              That's probably the most commonly used linebreeding and considered the most desired in the linebreeding of dogs. One step closer and it would be called inbreeding but that's where the line for "linebreeding" starts.
              www.HistoricHousePreservation.com

              Comment


              • #8
                I would linebreed Landadel with the right cross. For example, Stedinger with your mare might be a *really* nice cross.
                Roseknoll Sporthorses
                www.roseknoll.net

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Tom King View Post
                  That's probably the most commonly used linebreeding and considered the most desired in the linebreeding of dogs. One step closer and it would be called inbreeding but that's where the line for "linebreeding" starts.
                  I'm assuming, Tom, you mean Sire's sire and the mare's dam sire. (Wow, say that three times fast!)

                  Have you bred anything like this ... in horses, I mean?
                  "For God hates utterly
                  The bray of bragging tongues."
                  Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Look at the pedigree of Fhitzgerald - Weltmeyer mare bred to a Weltmeyer grandson. I guess that worked out okay - he just finished 5th overall at the 70DT (and 3rd in the jumping - with a dressage pedigree!). Of course, he also has Furioso II twice in the 4th generation.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      When linebreeding it is best to know all the negative traits you are doubling up on as well as the positives, i. e. bad hocks (?), small feet (?), tough mouth (?). Research requires that you be sure you want everything doubling up a name will bring to the table genetically speaking. Talking to people who have ridden offspring of the individual you are comtemplating using may be of more help than asking people who don't ride.

                      My recent foray into this area appears to be successful but I have ridden all the names involved for several generations and know the conformation, rideability and soundness intimately.
                      http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=427650
                      Anne
                      -------
                      "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        That's probably the most commonly used linebreeding and considered the most desired in the linebreeding of dogs. One step closer and it would be called inbreeding but that's where the line for "linebreeding" starts.
                        Grand-to-grand is the most popular line breeding by two of my greatest mentors in two very different fields... One bred Hunters, Trakehners/Anglo-Traks, the other breeds Arabs for sport and working cowhorse etc.

                        Grandfather to granddaughter, Grandson to Grandmother etc. etc.

                        You're going to really cement the characteristics, and in both my mentors' reasonings, the POINT of it is not for the resulting foal--but for the next generation on, as you've concentrated the genetics from the horse doubled up on.

                        As said, you'd better be darn sure you WANT to double up on that...

                        I'm not familiar at all with the stallion, so can't speak to that. But I've always found it incredible that such diverse breeders as my two mentors agreed so exactly on this use of linebreeding.
                        InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                        Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I have a TB race producing broodmare who has this... the individual concerned is Norther Dancer. She looks like a Northern Dancer is supposed to look, not surprisingly, maybe a bit taller at around 16 to 16.1 hands. In a broodmare, it's an interesting situation, not one that I would probably do myself on purpose in stallion selection for a mare, but I suppose it would depend on the quality of the individual you are linebreeding to.
                          www.cordovafarm.weebly.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I don't know about Landadel himself, but I've been warned to be careful about having too much Landgraf in a pedigree. In this case, it might be far enough back to not be a problem, though. Landgraf became quite straight in the hind legs as he aged, and some hind end issues are something that have been found in some of his offspring. I love Landgraf; have some of his blood in my program, but I think it is something to be aware of. Obviously, if the horses in question don't have this issue then it is less of a risk. Certainly some horses w/ a lot of Landgraf in their pedigree have been just fine.

                            Here is an excerpt from http://www.horsemagazine.com/BREEDIN.../landgraf.html : "Imposing appearance with enormous crest and neck carriage. Smooth total topline and much presence. Beautiful face with marvelous eye. Long, rather broad neck, long sloping shoulder. Withers, could be more clearly defined. Well shaped, muscular croup. Strong bone. Good in front. Slightly sickle hocked in youth (became very straight with age). Tied in below the hock and faults in the hind fetlocks. Good mover. Marvelous temperament. Phenomenal jumper; tight in front, lots of bascule, careful and talented. Great performance capabilities."
                            "Offspring are of various sizes and usually late developers. In youth, the tall ones appear leggy and narrow. Nearly always passes on his face, type and also his hindleg faults. Amost all offspring are endowed with their sire's jumping ability. In the beginning they jump rather awkwardly with less than ideal form which improves with increased maturity. Seldom passes on his overly heavy neck. Huge number of international class jumpers. Up to now (the book was published in 1988) Landgraf is far and away the most important jumper sire in the world!"
                            Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
                            https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              A friend of mine bred a LeChampion mare to Landkoenig.

                              She would probably share the goods and the bads.
                              www.oakhollowstable.blogspot.com

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                OK, I found your thread.
                                My line breeding was similar, but the opposite - sire's dam sire & dam's sire the same - Obelisk. It has been an incredible cross for me. As foals, they have placed 3rd, 3rd, and 4th in large Devon classes. As mature horses, they are exactly what I hoped for. One is winning in the Hunters. Another scored 67, 68, & 69+% in his first 3 dressage tests ever as a almost 4 YO and 4 + 1 month - BLM Qualifying classes. Another is Eventing. His owners say he is always top couple in dressage, and he won his first Novice Level Event - Jr rider.

                                I made sure the stallion I doubled up on (and those behind him in his pedigree) had nothing that I was not happy to have strongly repeated in my foal.

                                Here are five of them!
                                Attached Files

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Random additional comment

                                  This thread made me do some searching out of curiosity, as I'm a Landadel fan and there was this horse in the fall Oldenburg auction see #44 Stedinger (Sandro Hit/Landadel) out of Landfriese II mare (Landadel/Manstein). Not exactly what you are talking about of course...

                                  http://www.oldenburger-pferde.com/ca...alogH09eng.pdf

                                  No idea how the horse did/looked.

                                  Landadel is double Ladykiller, but not double Landgraf...but the Landgraf (re: Hillside's comment) would be getting rather far back in this case perhaps???
                                  DIY Journey of Remodeling the Farmette: http://weownblackacre.blogspot.com/

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I think that line breeding can work- but is best left to those breeders that really know ALL of the possible positives and negatives of the individual in question. If you have to ask about it on the COH bb - I am guessing that you do not in fact have that kind of knowledge.

                                    I do not have that level of expertise myself - and I would be very cautious using a stallion where you have Landgraf showing up twice in a four generation pedigree. He was a very influential stallion - but that was in spite of his multiple and heriditary hind leg conformation issues.

                                    Breeders in Europe have sucessfully bred horses with Landgraf up close more than once in a pedigree - my opinion is that they either have a great depth of knowlege about the individual horses in question, including the strengths and weaknesses of the production of the mare and the mare line - or they got lucky.

                                    Unless you have that kind of knowlege, or know someone that does - I would keep looking at stallions.

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by BC5098 View Post
                                      If you have to ask about it on the COH bb - I am guessing that you do not in fact have that kind of knowledge.
                                      I certainly don't want to give the impression that I *do* have that kind of knowledge, and, if anyone thinks I do (which I seriously doubt!) I want to assure them I certainly do NOT.

                                      BC5098, quite honestly, this was more of an intellectual exercise rather than "I'm writing the check out and I've signed the contract ... " Having said that, I really *DO* like Landadel and I think it was a shame we lost him so early.

                                      I have learned something interesting (well, at least I think it's interesting): it is "stallion specific", e.g., stallion A can be line bred with good results while stallion B cannot. Asking serious questions doesn't (necessarily) mean you're going to run out and do something ... but I guess at the end of the day, I just love to learn.

                                      Thanks very much for your remarks, BC5098! They were insightful.
                                      "For God hates utterly
                                      The bray of bragging tongues."
                                      Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Landadel

                                        I am a big Landadel fan--and love the Ladykiller type. I bred one of my mares last season to Landfriese II [by Landadel]. The mare is by my stallion, Fatalist [whose dam was by a Ladykiller son, Heidelberg--that was his name in Holland, but in Holstein his name was Largo--he was by Ladykiller and out of a Holsteiner Heidelberg mother], and out of a Landadel mother. So essentially she will be having a foal that is 37% Landadel/17% Ladykiller.

                                        I don't normally linebreed this close, but I am very interested in seeing what I get. Since she is by Fatalist, I am not so concerned, as the only common genetics there is the third generation of Ladykiller. That is the "slice of the pie" that sits between Landfriese and the grandmother, Lady Liberty, who is by Landadel.
                                        Last edited by feather river; Dec. 30, 2009, 04:29 AM. Reason: typo
                                        Discipline is the Bridge between Dreams and Accomplishments

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