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HYPP N/H question

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  • #21
    No, it started with the Impressive line. It is now E V E R Y W H E R E. This mare should NOT be bred.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!

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    • #22
      Originally posted by Tiki View Post
      No, it started with the Impressive line. It is now E V E R Y W H E R E. This mare should NOT be bred.
      Bullsheet. the horse in question must be a descendant of Impressive to be N/H. Your post makes it sound like it's contagious.


      and, NO- we should not be breeding N/H horses. We should do the responsible thing and breed it OUT by NOT creating more of them.

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by Woodland View Post
        If the mare is nice breed her and see what happens If the the foal is N/H don't breed her again. Geld or spay the foal to appease others.

        I own and ride daily an N/H horse - and you know what? The sky is not falling!

        I bought him knowing he was N/H I liked the horse I bought him he is awesome! And again the skying is still not falling.
        A young girl (about 13 at the time) owned an N/H gelding. Very very nice gelding and great with this girl, who had some mental disability of some sort (I do not remember what exactly, but in vernacular she would have been called 'slow').

        Well, she fed this wonderful gelding bananas - because he loved them. A banana load she fed him would have been fine for any other horse, but the potassium was to much and triggered an attack. He died at 5 years old and after the girl had owned him for only a few months.

        This is one of the problems with N/H - careful care needs to be taken. In this situation, the adults (child's parents, barn owner, seller, etc) knew about the condition, but the girl did not have full understanding, coupled with her disability 'don't do this' did not sink in the way it would have with another child of the same age.

        Other people buy a horse not knowing exactly what N/H is and rely on the owners to inform them what N/H means - some owners do not even know it means the horse can still show symptoms. Some people do not even disclose or check into if their breeding stock is N/H, H/H or what.

        I will have to check on my step-mom's horse again. I am thinking he is N/H as well and even with impeccable care from knowledgeable people, he still had a few attacks and she almost lost him at least once. I could be wrong - he might be N/N and it was something else, but this experience is not out of the question.

        So, why breed a horse that has a condition like this? Enjoy the N/H horses you have out there - just do not breed them and get rid of the line, get rid of the mutation, get rid of the possibility of someone else investing that time, money and emotion into something they may lose to soon.

        What would you do if someone fed your horse something over the fence that would not affect other horses but triggers an attack in yours? Or a change in feed does, an added supplement that has to much of a mineral that triggers and attack?

        Comment


        • #24
          So if the hypothetical mare is bred, per Woodland's, um, interesting suggestion, and produces N/N the first time then what? Breed her again? Spay her? It's a complete lottery what she will produce -- the genes she passes in one breeding have zero influence on the ones she passes along the next. She could potentially have no foals with HyPP. She could have ONLY foals with HyPP.

          The only responsible way to deal with an N/H horse is to not breed it. Period. I'm sure there are great N/H horses out there, but only a fool deliberately perpetuates a potentially dangerous (both to horse and human) genetic defect.
          According to the Mayan calendar, the world will not end this week. Please plan your life accordingly.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by Woodland View Post
            If the mare is nice breed her and see what happens If the the foal is N/H don't breed her again. Geld or spay the foal to appease others.

            I own and ride daily an N/H horse - and you know what? The sky is not falling!

            I bought him knowing he was N/H I liked the horse I bought him he is awesome! And again the skying is still not falling.
            I am glad your horse is doing well, and I hope that continues to be the case. But you must know there is a chance that N/H horses will be affected more severely and even to the point of death, I can not find the rate of death but I know it is not uncommon.
            I am not sure why you suggest giving it a try? It is a personal opinion but...the resulting foal will have a 50/50 chance of carrying it. There are about a bazillion horses out there right now that you can buy for under $600 dollars that are broke, beautiful, foals, weanlings, QH's, and tons of give away Tb's, broodmares and even WB broodmares, etc. Considering the risk that the mare might have an attack due to the pregnancy or the resulting foal might be very unhealthy, why bother? This is a value call I realize but I don't think it is right to knowingly stack the deck against a horses health. Like I said I am glad your experience is going well, but for some N/H horses this is not the case.
            Here is some information on the disease and care of a affected animal.

            http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/hypp.php
            http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=5151
            http://www.bringinglighttohypp.org/
            http://www.aqha.com/association/registration/hypp.html

            Comment


            • #26
              You will no more convince Woody to consider HYPP to be a bad thing, than you could convince me to give up chocolate. Aint. Gonna. Happen.

              Focus your efforts on educating the OP, Woody's a lost cause on the HYPP train. My vet is an AQHA National Director, and he wants it gone. That should carry more weight than one happy owner somewhere with her own monogrammed HYPP blinders on.

              Comment


              • #27
                What I don't understand is why the AQHA chooses to perpetuate this disease. Wait....you can't win a halter class unless you have a horse with Impressive's bloodlines, that's why.

                I guess until there is a major shift in that world the disease will go on and on. Winning is apparently more important than eradicating the disease.
                Kanoe Godby
                www.dyrkgodby.com
                See, I was raised by wolves and am really behind the 8-ball on diplomatic issue resolution.

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                • #28
                  stupid question. What is HYPP N/H ?
                  Not a stupid question, at all. HYPP is Hyperkalemic periodic paralysis. Basically, it's a messed up sodium channel in the horse's muscle tissue it which can cause seizure-like episodes, passing paralysis and death.

                  The N/H part means that of the two alleles that the mare has, one is negative for the trait and the other is positive. Unfortunately, and unlike HERDA, HYPP is a dominant trait meaning that the horse has one positive allele, the H here, the horse will show signs of the disease. The OPs horse may not have had an attack yet, and possibly won't ever, however there's also the possibility that it will have one tomorrow. Just because the horse has never had an attack in the past doesn't mean that it never will. The disease is still there it just hasn't been triggered yet.

                  Breeding a HYPP N/H horse results in at least a 50% chance of the offspring having HYPP, no matter what breed the N/H horse is bred to. If the N/H horse is bred to another N/H horse the probability jumps to 75% affected offspring. If either parent is H/H (positive/positive) then regardless of the other horse, ALL off the offspring will have HYPP.

                  Woodland obviously failed high school biology, and probably never made it to statistics. Hurf Durf, let's take a 50% chance on the foal having a potentially fatal and completely preventable genetic disease. That's awesome responsible ownership right there that is.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    It WILL go away, but any organization is going to take it's time so that the association members don't just jump ship and go show in another breed where HYPP is still registerable. They don't want to do it too fast. You don't want the value of X # of horses to tank, which they would.

                    It just takes time. And ethical, responsible members to make it go away.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Katarine, with this
                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by Tiki
                      No, it started with the Impressive line. It is now E V E R Y W H E R E. This mare should NOT be bred.

                      Bullsheet. the horse in question must be a descendant of Impressive to be N/H. Your post makes it sound like it's contagious.
                      you have completely missed the point. It STARTED with Impressive. Now that the Impressive horses have been bred to TB's and WB's and maybe Hackneys and TWH's and ponies and jumpers and hunters and all kinds of other horses. It. IS. EVERYWHERE.

                      Yes, the horse has to trace back through some number of generations to Impressive, BUT, if someone has an Appendix QH mare, with less than 25% QH bloodlines - even if that line goes back to Impressive in the 5th generation AND that mare is N/H, and she breeds it to a WB stallion and gets a filly that is still N/H, through all the generations, by the 6th generation back, that information is effectively LOST in the pedigree and now HYPP . IS . E V E R Y W H E R E !

                      It's kind of like that old color question - "Where the heck did that chestnut foal come from with all bay parents many, many generations back"? Well, all the bay parents were heterozygous for chestnut/bay and all of a sudden, 2 chestnut genes popped up and - VOILA - the foal is chestnut - BUT, and a very important but - chesnut color can't kill the horse or the rider (who might be involved in a serious fall when the horse crashes).
                      Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
                      Now apparently completely invisible!

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by atlatl View Post
                        I haven't worried about HYPP (Hyperkalemic periodic paralysis) for a long time, but last time I checked, the standard test ONLY identified horses with the same genetic mutation that is believed to have started with Impressive. Does anyone know if this is still the case?

                        From a genetic point of view, another mutation could occur to the same gene in a different blood line.
                        Sure, another mutation could occur to cause the same problems, but the chances of that are sooooooo remote as to not really be worth considering.

                        AFAIK, there is only the 1 test, only the one line. There IS a thought that it was Impressive's dam who originated the mutation and passed it (obviously) to Impressive. I do not believe that has ever been proven.

                        Originally posted by Woodland View Post
                        If the mare is nice breed her and see what happens If the the foal is N/H don't breed her again. Geld or spay the foal to appease others.
                        But WHY? Why produce another HYPP horse?

                        I own and ride daily an N/H horse - and you know what? The sky is not falling!
                        Yet.

                        You would not be the first person to be riding a N/H horse who'd never had a seizure and have the horse drop dead from under you that day.

                        I bought him knowing he was N/H I liked the horse I bought him he is awesome! And again the skying is still not falling.
                        Fine. Buy one, deal with the issues - that's your choice, and it's one that keeps breeders breeding those ?/H horses.

                        But PLEASE do not make it sound like a N/H horse is no big deal
                        ______________________________
                        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by katarine View Post
                          You will no more convince Woody to consider HYPP to be a bad thing, than you could convince me to give up chocolate. Aint. Gonna. Happen.

                          Focus your efforts on educating the OP, Woody's a lost cause on the HYPP train. My vet is an AQHA National Director, and he wants it gone. That should carry more weight than one happy owner somewhere with her own monogrammed HYPP blinders on.
                          You're right, as I was typing my reply to her on that, I remembered a long, heated, frustrating thread some time ago on that very thing

                          Originally posted by CDE Driver View Post
                          What I don't understand is why the AQHA chooses to perpetuate this disease.
                          At least now they have disallowed the registration of H/H horses. Not a huge help, but it's a step. You can still register N/H horses.

                          It's the APHA who is still allowing H/H horses to be registered. I don't think the PtHA is even disallowing anything.

                          Wait....you can't win a halter class unless you have a horse with Impressive's bloodlines, that's why.
                          Of course you can! Winning halter horses, fugly as many of them are, are not soley of the Impressive line. Not by a longshot.
                          ______________________________
                          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Did Impressive have symptoms? Was he H/H?
                            Eight Fences Farm. Mansfield, MA

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by Woodland View Post
                              If the mare is nice breed her and see what happens If the the foal is N/H don't breed her again. Geld or spay the foal to appease others.

                              I own and ride daily an N/H horse - and you know what? The sky is not falling!

                              I bought him knowing he was N/H I liked the horse I bought him he is awesome! And again the skying is still not falling.
                              CRAZY!

                              That attitude is why we still have HyPP affected horses today.

                              YOUR horse is ok, right now, may not be next time you look at it.
                              That is what anyone with an N/H or H/H horse can count on.

                              WHY breed any more of that?

                              http://www.bringinglighttohypp.org/

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by JB View Post
                                Sure, another mutation could occur to cause the same problems, but the chances of that are sooooooo remote as to not really be worth considering.
                                I wouldn't bet on that. FYIW my mom had a genetic blood disease(Guacher's). When genetic testing was done, she didn't have any of the "standard" mutations associated with the disease that had been identified to date. She had one mutation that was "very rare" and another that had "never been seen". I do realize that one data point does not a trend make. (having made it through both high school biology and graduate level statistics )

                                My point, and I think we are in agreement, is that the test for HYPP only looks for a specific mutation (that traced to Impressive). I've run into folks that want to test their non-Impressive bred quarter horses and have continually made the point that it makes no sense to do so.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by CDE Driver View Post
                                  What I don't understand is why the AQHA chooses to perpetuate this disease. Wait....you can't win a halter class unless you have a horse with Impressive's bloodlines, that's why.
                                  You know, they don't even have that excuse because there are loads of Impressive bred horses out there who are N/N. Such a shame that AQHA perpetuate this by allowing the registration of N/H because as others have said, if they didn't, it could be totally wiped out with just one generation. Keep registering the N/N horses and the halter people still have their show horses, just not ones who could die at any time.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by Cloverbarley View Post
                                    You know, they don't even have that excuse because there are loads of Impressive bred horses out there who are N/N. Such a shame that AQHA perpetuate this by allowing the registration of N/H because as others have said, if they didn't, it could be totally wiped out with just one generation. Keep registering the N/N horses and the halter people still have their show horses, just not ones who could die at any time.
                                    AQHA doesn't register but under very specific rules, trying to stamp this out.

                                    The reason they could not ban all right off was first, because the science for it was not good enough to stand in court and enough members with plenty of money, very expensive HYPP horses and loose ethics wanted to keep being able to register their duly registreable AQHA offspring.

                                    The AQHA just lost a lawsuit about something similar a few years ago (look up the white rule lawsuit) and didn't feel it could go thru that again, too expensive.

                                    Right now, you have to test every Impressive bred horse from other then N/N parents or it can't be registered and H/H, I think, can't be registered since 2007 or so.
                                    Eventually, no HYPP+ positive horse will be accepted for registration.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by luvs2ridewbs View Post
                                      Did Impressive have symptoms? Was he H/H?
                                      I don't know if Impressive had symptoms or not. I've heard varying stories over the years, some say yes, others no. No he wasn't H/H as he had offspring that were N/N.

                                      The AQHA just lost a lawsuit about something similar a few years ago (look up the white rule lawsuit) and didn't feel it could go thru that again, too expensive.
                                      No, it wasn't the white rule or the cremellos either. It was the lawsuit by people who wanted registration of more than two foals out of the same mare born in same year (exception being twins of course) through embryo transfer. Cost the association a bunch of money to go to court for that, and I imagine the breeders of HyPP horses would be in court PDQ if AQHA made a move to ban N/H horses completely.
                                      ~~Some days are a total waste of makeup.~~

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        I own N/N,N/H and H/H horses. I have heard it all and been flamed too. Don't care, love my horses. I sure don't hear people gripping about HERDA which is a death sentence. HYPP isn't a death sentence.
                                        http://www.catchadreamfarm.com

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by Tiki View Post
                                          Katarine, with this you have completely missed the point. It STARTED with Impressive. Now that the Impressive horses have been bred to TB's and WB's and maybe Hackneys and TWH's and ponies and jumpers and hunters and all kinds of other horses. It. IS. EVERYWHERE.

                                          Yes, the horse has to trace back through some number of generations to Impressive, BUT, if someone has an Appendix QH mare, with less than 25% QH bloodlines - even if that line goes back to Impressive in the 5th generation AND that mare is N/H, and she breeds it to a WB stallion and gets a filly that is still N/H, through all the generations, by the 6th generation back, that information is effectively LOST in the pedigree and now HYPP . IS . E V E R Y W H E R E !

                                          It's kind of like that old color question - "Where the heck did that chestnut foal come from with all bay parents many, many generations back"? Well, all the bay parents were heterozygous for chestnut/bay and all of a sudden, 2 chestnut genes popped up and - VOILA - the foal is chestnut - BUT, and a very important but - chesnut color can't kill the horse or the rider (who might be involved in a serious fall when the horse crashes).
                                          No, actually, I don't think I miss the point. If one has cause to believe their Out of Oklahoma by Trailer, horse is related to Impressive, test for it before you breed.

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