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Rotspon - Hunters (Spinoff)

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  • Rotspon - Hunters (Spinoff)

    A number of people have mentioned that Rotspon is a great hunter sire. I really love Rotspon offspring but am only familiar with his dressage progeny. Does anyone know of Rotspon offspring that have competed successfully at 3"6 or above on the A Circuit?
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  • #2
    ***Personal experience only - I have seen a number of Rotspons that had a lovely look and moved quite well. None of them were particularly useful past 3ft though. All jumped quite well at 3ft. Not the end of the world, but because of this, probably not my first pick for a 3'6" plus hunter sire.
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    • #3
      ditto - and the ones I saw not such great hunter movers either, which doesn't bother me much if they jump really well - ie 3'6" or better.
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      • #4
        A friend of mine had a Redwine (Rotspon x Matcho) filly out of a Merano (Holsteiner) mare. The mare was an undefeated hunter champion competitor in her day. Merano, a jumping type for certain, but the bottom line for the mare included a full sister to Florestan. The resulting filly was a spectacular mover, and definitely a dressage type. A spectacular dressage type mover, she bested that year's foal crop by a mile in terms of movement. Based on that, I'd say pay careful attention to the mare line as to hunter vs. dressage movement potential . Rotspon will often add some prettiness and mellow temperament as desired in the hunter ring, but based on the mare line, you just might get a super dressage horse vs. a hunter.
        Last edited by Indy-lou; Oct. 11, 2009, 11:55 PM.
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        • #5
          Rotspon would not be a top choice when selecting a hunter sire. As a dressage sire he is proven. Nothing has proven him as a sire of hunters and he has bred many mares.

          Maybe a horse here and there make it into the US hunter market. OP, I do not know any competing at 3'6 or above. I do not think there are many competing at lower jumps either.

          The Rotspon - Rubenstein line might be good "generalists" , a dressage horses that might jump. What I have seen from the actual videos posted on here and youtube of Rotspon hunters or hunter prospects are horses with stabby canters and lack of scope over the jumps which does not make a nice hunter type.

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          • #6
            I'm not in the "hunter market", so forgive my ignorance -- but isn't Red Wine showing -- what level or division (size of jumps) is he doing? If the hunter breeders are looking to do the 3'6"+, wouldn't they be looking at a stallion who competes there or shows that kind of scope? I do agree that the mare can't be overlooked -- she brings alot to the table, so both need to do their part. I think Red Wine is stunning and would not hesitate to use him even though my interest is more dressage oriented.
            PennyG

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            • #7
              USEF says Grateful is a Rotspon. He's a decent horse at the 3'6". Haven't seen him at the 3'9".

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              • #8
                Originally posted by TKR View Post
                I'm not in the "hunter market", so forgive my ignorance -- but isn't Red Wine showing -- what level or division (size of jumps) is he doing? If the hunter breeders are looking to do the 3'6"+, wouldn't they be looking at a stallion who competes there or shows that kind of scope? I do agree that the mare can't be overlooked -- she brings alot to the table, so both need to do their part. I think Red Wine is stunning and would not hesitate to use him even though my interest is more dressage oriented.
                PennyG
                I saw Redwine at Thermal this year. He was showing in the Baby and Pre-greens. He's young and just starting his career. Maybe his owner will chime in here (she posts) and let us know what he's been up to. I wouldn't expect to see him in the greens until next year, at the absolute earliest.

                He's lovely, BTW.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Go Fish View Post
                  I saw Redwine at Thermal this year. He was showing in the Baby and Pre-greens. He's young and just starting his career. Maybe his owner will chime in here (she posts) and let us know what he's been up to. I wouldn't expect to see him in the greens until next year, at the absolute earliest.

                  He's lovely, BTW.
                  Thanks for asking. Redwine did the pregreens at Thermal. He has plenty of scope according to John French. He was in training for 3 weeks after not being ridden for almost 2 years which is the only reason he didn't move up at Thermal. He just wasn't in shape. He spent the spring and summer being collected almost every day due to his popularity and is back in training. He's schools 3'6" at home and will probably move up next year. As other people have pointed out Rubinstein scored a 120 in jumping, higher then he scored in dressage and Rotspon a 117. Redwine when he went to the 70 day test beat many of the jumper bred stallions, in jumping. I think there are plenty of R line horses in the hunters but since people change names and don't list pedigree it's hard to track. Talking to trainers that import hunters R line is one of lines they look for. What's not to like, they are beautiful, have fantastic rideability and they jump. I'm not sure why people are so shocked that they don't show up on the USEF lists, the lists aren't accurate. I thought everyone knew that.
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                  • #10
                    Chad Keenum has had several Rotspons that have been spectacular come through his barn - I don't recall the names but they were gorgeous, could move and jump. I'm sure he'll fill you in if you email him! Rotspon himself is a very hunter-type mover.

                    And again I say the 3' division is the largest in the country, hands down. Most of our buyers say they aspire to the 3'6" and by horses with the potential but 90% never get there, and are thrilled with good moving and jumping, pretty and safe, quiet horses to do the 3' with and win.

                    Not that a breeder shouldn't set higher goals but it would also be nice to see these folks that constantly harp about this topic to start producing what they talk about. It's one thing to simply talk about it but an entirely different one to try and accomplish it and actually put your money (and lots of it), heart and life into really breeding it.

                    Plus, there are many stallions that are popular hunter sires that have done a handful, if any, hunter shows. Just because they haven't done it doesn't mean they can't produce it... just since they haven't had hunter tack on doesn't mean they couldn't have succeeded if given the chance. That's like saying my Dutch gelding is a western horse when I put a western saddle on him. The eye to see the potential is where the talent lies. For example, I think Quaterback would be a great try as a hunter sire, yet I know this will get some laughs - BUT, check his pedigree and you'll see he's really more jumper bred than dressage. With the right mare of course, I think it could be special. Actually a well known GOV official has agreed with me on this thought. But then to go outside the box like that takes $$ and guts and that is the mother of invention and subsequent improvement.
                    Last edited by Signature; Oct. 12, 2009, 08:29 PM.
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                    • #11
                      I know of 2 that are quite spectacular hunters at 3'6"
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                      carolprudm

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Signature View Post
                        And again I say the 3' division is the largest in the country, hands down. Most of our buyers say they aspire to the 3'6" and by horses with the potential but 90% never get there, and are thrilled with good moving and jumping, pretty and safe, quiet horses to do the 3' with and win.
                        Oh -- so it's just the same as dressage!

                        In dressage 80% of the competitors show at 2nd Level or lower, but every, single one of them wants (no -- make that NEEDS) an FEI level horse. I know, I talk to them all the time.

                        One of these days my mouth will get the better of me, and when the 40 year old lady who rides 3x a weeks asks me if the foal she is considering has the potential to go FEI I will finally blurt out: "probably not with you riding it...."

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
                          Oh -- so it's just the same as dressage!

                          In dressage 80% of the competitors show at 2nd Level or lower, but every, single one of them wants (no -- make that NEEDS) an FEI level horse. I know, I talk to them all the time.

                          One of these days my mouth will get the better of me, and when the 40 year old lady who rides 3x a weeks asks me if the foal she is considering has the potential to go FEI I will finally blurt out: "probably not with you riding it...."

                          EXACTLY. We have a lovely dressage mare for sale with a professional and she told me just a few days ago every person who looks at her claims they need an FEI horse. LOL! (and she IS capable) It's great to have dreams but as a breeder when you need to recoup some of the huge financial investment, it does help to breed stuff that people want and need. Most amateur riders don't have the time, talent and money it takes to ride, train and show a horse to that level anyway.
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                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
                            Oh -- so it's just the same as dressage!

                            In dressage 80% of the competitors show at 2nd Level or lower, but every, single one of them wants (no -- make that NEEDS) an FEI level horse. I know, I talk to them all the time.

                            One of these days my mouth will get the better of me, and when the 40 year old lady who rides 3x a weeks asks me if the foal she is considering has the potential to go FEI I will finally blurt out: "probably not with you riding it...."
                            Given that I did show in the 3 '6 and 4 foot divisions for many years that is what I expect when I am breeding for hunters. In my opinion, ANY reasonably athletic horse can navigate a 3 ft course decently. I don't need to *breed* for that. There is not a single dressage horse in my barn that cannot do that. If I am breeding hunters, though, I am aiming to produce ones that will win in rated divisions, qualify for indoors, etc etc. The economics just do not work, otherwise, imo.
                            Roseknoll Sporthorses
                            www.roseknoll.net

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by YankeeLawyer View Post
                              Given that I did show in the 3 '6 and 4 foot divisions for many years that is what I expect when I am breeding for hunters. In my opinion, ANY reasonably athletic horse can navigate a 3 ft course decently. I don't need to *breed* for that. There is not a single dressage horse in my barn that cannot do that. If I am breeding hunters, though, I am aiming to produce ones that will win in rated divisions, qualify for indoors, etc etc. The economics just do not work, otherwise, imo.
                              Have you bred many hunters? Any names you care to share with us?
                              Last edited by avadog; Oct. 13, 2009, 01:46 AM.

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                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Originally posted by avadog View Post
                                Have you bred many hunters? Any names you care to share with us?
                                Do you know any Rotspon-bred hunters? Any names you care to share with us? THAT by the way is the topic of my thread, not me or my program.

                                Why is it that when anyone is even perceived to question one of the haloed black stallions the thread will turn into a personal attack on the OP? How is your question relevant to whether the Rotspon line is a go to line for producing hunters? I find it amazing that my question regarding the wisdom of selecting a dressage line to produce hunters (as opposed to certain jumper lines) is somehow controversial, but apparently it rubbed people wrong. My question would be no less legitimate if I had never owned a hunter. The fact of the matter is that I know hunters very, very well and have won plenty in that discipline. I don't have to justify my query to you or anyone else.

                                Thank you to the posters who took the time to provide examples of R-line hunters.
                                Last edited by YankeeLawyer; Oct. 13, 2009, 03:40 AM.
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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by YankeeLawyer View Post
                                  [...] In my opinion, ANY reasonably athletic horse can navigate a 3 ft course decently. I don't need to *breed* for that. There is not a single dressage horse in my barn that cannot do that. [...]
                                  I read the thread because I was also interested to hear about this.
                                  I have to agree totally on the above said as this has and is always my opinion. Unfortunately in Germany you seldomly see people that do dressage and jumping at the same time. Most riders can't and do not want to do it anymore as it is stress since most shows are not really designed from the timetable to be able to do it in a nice way and most horses are looked at from the pedigree and put into the dressage or jumping box - rubbish in my eyes !

                                  My friend does compete in both disziplines and every single horse she rides has to do level 1 dressage and the equivalent in jumping classes (level A german which should be somewhere in the 3'6'' 3'9' area i believe) at least. Each of those horses will move up in the levels in the diszipline that it is better at. There are two mares she rides at the moment. Mine who has more talent for dressage and won level 2 this year which did not hinder her to win a suitability class for 3day horses at level A and get placings in jumping classes level A. The other mare she rides is a better jumper. She did do the jumping classes level L this year - Am not sure how much that exactly is, but higher than level A and the poor think really looking an athletic jumper and moving like one is dragged into any level A dressage test that happens to be at the same show and fits into the timetable. She already got placings in that level and due to good riding of my friend there will be a time she will win one of those. But given that you can see the jumper written all over her !

                                  But coming back to Rotspon, I do not have the stallion book available right now but it would be very interesting to check out how his breeding index for jumping from the MPTs of his daugthers is and to look at the FN yearbook to find out about offspring in jumping classes over here. Just to find out about the jumping ability. Rideabilitywise I am sure his offspring is suitable.
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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by alexandra View Post
                                    But coming back to Rotspon, I do not have the stallion book available right now but it would be very interesting to check out how his breeding index for jumping from the MPTs of his daugthers is and to look at the FN yearbook to find out about offspring in jumping classes over here. Just to find out about the jumping ability. Rideabilitywise I am sure his offspring is suitable.
                                    Alexandra, I would think that Rotspon's breeding index for jumping would not be very high because most of his offspring are from non-jumper mares. Correct?

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by YankeeLawyer View Post
                                      In my opinion, ANY reasonably athletic horse can navigate a 3 ft course decently. I don't need to *breed* for that. There is not a single dressage horse in my barn that cannot do that. If I am breeding hunters, though, I am aiming to produce ones that will win in rated divisions, qualify for indoors, etc etc. The economics just do not work, otherwise, imo.
                                      In reading this thread I have to agree with YL... most especially I agree that most any athletic horse can jump 3 feet. Not sure if they can do it with style, rhythm and consistency required to be competitive in Hunters, but we don’t do Hunters, so I really have no opinion about what is valued. Our two cents is that Rotspon seems to produce a lovely outline and very pretty offspring, and "pretty" seems to be a more important criteria in Hunters than other disciplines… so in that respect, Rotspon would certainly be worth a good long look.

                                      About “pretty”… I read people commenting that “pretty is as pretty does” and athletic ability should trump "pretty," i.e. from another thread:

                                      Originally posted by Donella View Post
                                      Who cares what his head looks like...or his ears or tail or coat color. Breeders get so caught up with trivialities (I used to, because I have a mare with a head like that) that have no effect whatsoever on how the horse performs (which is what they are...performance horses!).
                                      The bottom line is that you have to live with this horse for 20 some years… and when the performance career is a thing of the past, “pretty” is easy to re-sell…and / or easy to have in the barn. A big, brown, roughly put together horse, with a head like a frickin suitcase starts to look a little rough as the years go by.
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                                      • #20
                                        Your correct Cartier, hunters have to have the look. They have to be pretty. You couldn't take a horse that was pretty ugly say like Galoubet and expect him to be a top hunter even though he ended up as successful in producing jumpers. I remember reading an article that Scott Stewart wrote a few years ago and he said that was a very important aspect for him when picking a hunter.

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