• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Color Experts -- Silly Question

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Color Experts -- Silly Question

    If I breed a palomino mare to a black stallion who is homozygous for black (points), does that mean I cannot possibly get a palomino, only a buckskin?

    And does this lessen the 50-50 chance of a dilute?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
    If I breed a palomino mare to a black stallion who is homozygous for black (points), does that mean I cannot possibly get a palomino, only a buckskin?
    Yes. A homozygous for black stallion can never sire a red foal (chestnut, palomino, cremello).

    And does this lessen the 50-50 chance of a dilute?
    No. A homozygous for black sire may reduce the amount of chrome potential in the foal though.

    You do not need to be an expert to understand these basics.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
      If I breed a palomino mare to a black stallion who is homozygous for black (points),
      what does that mean - homozygous for black (points)? Are you saying he's black, and homozygous for black? I've only ever heard "homozygous for black point" when referring to a horse who is EEAA - meaning he's bay, and is always going to produce bay with another black/bay/chestnut horse.

      If the horse is black, he cannot have anything that causes bay, or he'd be bay.

      does that mean I cannot possibly get a palomino, only a buckskin?
      If he's EE, homozygous for black, then right, you can never get a red-based horse (ie a palomino).

      As for buckskin - if he is black himself, then any bay or bay-derivative (ie buckskin would be solely up to the mare. In this case, with the mare being red-based, where Agouti (the gene that causes bay) is not expressed, you don't know her status. If she is aa, your chances are 50/50 black and smoky black. If she's AA, your chances are 50/50 bay and buckskin. If she's Aa, 25% each bay, black, buckskin, smoky black.

      And does this lessen the 50-50 chance of a dilute?
      The palomino mare will have a 50/50 shot at giving her dilute gene each breeding. That gene is entirely separate from black or bay or any other factor
      ______________________________
      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

      Comment


      • #4
        If he's truly black

        You could get a smoky black.

        So your possibilities are:

        Bay, Buckskin, Black, or Smoky Black.

        Since the smoky black is not obviously dilute it can lessen your chances for an easily identifiable dilute although the gene will still be there.
        -Painted Wings

        Set youself apart from the crowd, ride a paint horse, you're sure to be spotted

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Originally posted by JB View Post
          what does that mean - homozygous for black (points)? Are you saying he's black, and homozygous for black? I've only ever heard "homozygous for black point" when referring to a horse who is EEAA - meaning he's bay, and is always going to produce bay with another black/bay/chestnut horse.

          If the horse is black, he cannot have anything that causes bay, or he'd be bay.
          Actually, that's not true, from what I understand. A stallion can be homzygous black, which means he cannot produce a red, but he CAN produce a bay if the mare has the agouti gene. Rosenthal is such a horse (I got a bay from a chestnut mare) and so is Sandro Hit and Sempatico (again, my friend got a tri-colored pinto by Sempatico o/o her chestnut mare). All of these horses are advertised as homozygous black (cannot produce a red), but all have produced bays.

          Am I expressing it incorrectly?

          As for the rest, I thought as much, but wanted to check just to make sure. Since palomino is a red dilute and homozygous black blocks red, I figured I couldn't get a palie...but then my head started to hurt and I had to go take a nap

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
            Actually, that's not true, from what I understand. A stallion can be homzygous black, which means he cannot produce a red, but he CAN produce a bay if the mare has the agouti gene.
            Yes, but JB is talking about the horse BEING black. If the horse is black he has no "A" of any kind. He can only produce a bay if the dam contributes it. And that she has only heard homozygous for black points when the horse can ONLY produce a bay based horse no matter what its bred to. (So to her a black would not qualify as homozygous for black points because it would then be BAY not black.)
            Rosenthal is such a horse (I got a bay from a chestnut mare) and so is Sandro Hit and Sempatico (again, my friend got a tri-colored pinto by Sempatico o/o her chestnut mare). All of these horses are advertised as homozygous black (cannot produce a red), but all have produced bays.
            They have produced bays but they themselves are not bay, they are black. If they were bay they would have "A".

            Am I expressing it incorrectly?
            I think youre just misunderstanding a bit.
            Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
            http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

            Comment


            • #7
              Here are three horses that I think illustrate JBs point.

              This horse is homozygous for black points. He will only ever produce bay based offspring. He is EEAACRcr
              http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...g/moretiii.jpg

              This horse is homozygous for black
              http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...alea_trot2.jpg

              This horse is also homozygous for black
              http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2..._006_small.jpg

              The first horse will only produce bay based offspring no matter the dams color. The second horse can produce black or bay, but no chestnut. The last horse can produce black or bay BUT the gene to change black to bay MUST be supplied by the dam.
              Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
              http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

              Comment


              • #8
                http://www.animalgenetics.us/CCalculator1.asp

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
                  Actually, that's not true, from what I understand. A stallion can be homzygous black, which means he cannot produce a red, but he CAN produce a bay if the mare has the agouti gene. Rosenthal is such a horse (I got a bay from a chestnut mare) and so is Sandro Hit and Sempatico (again, my friend got a tri-colored pinto by Sempatico o/o her chestnut mare). All of these horses are advertised as homozygous black (cannot produce a red), but all have produced bays.

                  Am I expressing it incorrectly?

                  As for the rest, I thought as much, but wanted to check just to make sure. Since palomino is a red dilute and homozygous black blocks red, I figured I couldn't get a palie...but then my head started to hurt and I had to go take a nap

                  Not to hijack this thread, but what kind of bay did you get? Curious because I am breeding my liver chestnut mare to Rosenthal in 2010 and bay is my color. The darker the better in fact.

                  And for the OP, I definatley understand all this color genetics stuff making your head hurt. I have a headache now just reading about it LOL.
                  Dawn

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Originally posted by RiddleMeThis View Post
                    Yes, but JB is talking about the horse BEING black. If the horse is black he has no "A" of any kind. He can only produce a bay if the dam contributes it. And that she has only heard homozygous for black points when the horse can ONLY produce a bay based horse no matter what its bred to. (So to her a black would not qualify as homozygous for black points because it would then be BAY not black.) They have produced bays but they themselves are not bay, they are black. If they were bay they would have "A".

                    I think youre just misunderstanding a bit.
                    Gotcha!!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks Riddler. I think I am actually staring to understand this stuff a little better even though I did not originally ask the question. But please don't start throwing around a bunch of little e's and big e's mixed up with other letters. I get confused. All I want to be sure of is that my future little Rosenthal will at least be bay (dark, dark bay if I can pick my bay) out of my liver chestnut mare.

                      Dawn

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Arab/WBGirl View Post
                        Not to hijack this thread, but what kind of bay did you get? Curious because I am breeding my liver chestnut mare to Rosenthal in 2010 and bay is my color. The darker the better in fact.

                        And for the OP, I definatley understand all this color genetics stuff making your head hurt. I have a headache now just reading about it LOL.
                        Dawn
                        My mare is not what one would technically call a "liver" I suppose, but she is very dark chestnut and registered with AHS as "dark chestnut." Her dam was a very dark bay -- pretty close to what some call a "black bay." She does have some black in the second generation, but more liver chestnuts than anything else.

                        I bred her to Sempatico & got a black & white colt, so naturally I assumed I'd get black from Rosenthal (that will teach me to assume...).

                        But her filly by Rosenthal was born a rich mahogany bay (after I had expressly ordered a black), but now that she's shedding out her foal coat she is very, very dark.

                        However, I've learned not to be fooled by that first shed -- it seems alot of them look dark. So we will wait till spring and see...how's that for an answer ?

                        Like you, I love a really dark bay, but really didn't want just a plain old bay...mainly because I already have afew of them....

                        But she is lovely in all other ways, and I REALLY wanted a filly, so I'm not going to complain too much.

                        Here is a link to my Webshots page -- her album is entitled "Rosalina." Those pics were taken 2 weeks ago, right after she first started to shed, so she's darker now...

                        http://community.webshots.com/user/RecklessHeartRanch
                        Last edited by Kyzteke; Oct. 4, 2009, 10:22 PM.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by rcloisonne View Post
                          A homozygous for black sire may reduce the amount of chrome potential in the foal though.
                          Why is that?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Kyzteke, yes, the issue was when you said it was a "black stallion who is homozygous for black (points)".

                            As it stands, both "black stallion" and "homozygous for black points" cannot exist on the same horse. He can be black-*based* and be AA (homoz for black points, aka bay), but he can't be black - the presence of a single A turns him bay (or brown, but let's not complicate things ).

                            If he's black, his Agouti status must be aa, which is the exact opposite of AA/homozygous for black points
                            ______________________________
                            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
                              Why is that?
                              It's pretty well documented that the presence of E (the "on" version of the extension locus which makes a horse black-based) has a suppressing effect on frame, splash, and sabino - the Overo patterns.

                              If you take a general look at the horse population, looking at chromed horses, and the classic frame overo pattern, you'll see a disproportionately large % of them are red-based. If you start looking even just at www.warmbloods-for-sale.com you'll notice that when horses have lots of high leg white, they're much, much more likely to be chestnut. Most of the bay or black horses with any white on their legs have low leg white. Black suppression - and not in a racial way LOL!
                              ______________________________
                              The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                why doesn't the color calculator include liver chestnut? from what my vet said, I understood that liver chestnut is a different gene than red chestnut???
                                Vixen Run Farm: Breeding and training ponies for the hunter ring!
                                Breeder of the 2008 PAHBF's Best PA Bred Pony!

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Nope, liver is just a shade of chestnut

                                  Bright bay, mahogany bay, dark bay - they're all bay, just different shades.

                                  Isabella palomino is just a light shade of palomino. Buttermilk is just a light shade of buckskin.

                                  Now, there ARE separate, unidentified genes that are responsible for shade, but the extension status of liver is still ee, just like chestnut; a bay is still E?A? no matter the shade; buckskin still E?A?Crcr no matter the shade, etc.
                                  ______________________________
                                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    and i expressly asked that a bunch of letters not get thrown around. I am dizzy for sure now LOL. I am in awe of those of you who truly understand all this color genetics. Rock on.
                                    Dawn

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      is there a way to tell determine red chestnut x liver chestnut??

                                      i am dizzy too!!!
                                      Vixen Run Farm: Breeding and training ponies for the hunter ring!
                                      Breeder of the 2008 PAHBF's Best PA Bred Pony!

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by JB View Post
                                        It's pretty well documented that the presence of E (the "on" version of the extension locus which makes a horse black-based) has a suppressing effect on frame, splash, and sabino - the Overo patterns.

                                        If you take a general look at the horse population, looking at chromed horses, and the classic frame overo pattern, you'll see a disproportionately large % of them are red-based. If you start looking even just at www.warmbloods-for-sale.com you'll notice that when horses have lots of high leg white, they're much, much more likely to be chestnut. Most of the bay or black horses with any white on their legs have low leg white. Black suppression - and not in a racial way LOL!
                                        Black is a "white supressor" gene not only from a standpoint of paint/pinto but also in terms of appaloosas.
                                        www.shawneeacres.net

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X