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warmblood & arab crosses - good idea or bad? (warning LONG!)

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  • #61
    we might not

    We might not be breeding for the olympics (I know I'm not) but, olympian Peron does have a half arab son standing at stud. TF Peron's Brilliance can be seen at www.americantrakehner.com along with a couple of other nice Arab stallions. (click on stallions "active")
    Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. Goethe

    Comment


    • #62
      http://www.ahsa.asn.au/dressage.htm

      http://www.arieana.com/wald0422.html
      (Some AMAZING photos on this link)

      Comment


      • #63
        I thought the topic was Is an Arab Warmblood cross a good idea. My point is that it might be a good idea to cross an Arab to a warmblood from the Arab breeders side of it. I am just not so sure that it is a good idea from the warmblood breeders side.

        The link by the previous poster is a case in point. It admits that a purebred is not a good choice for open competition. It goes on to say that a cross gives you your best chance at success.

        The problem with the cross is you don't really know if it was a successful refinement until you are atleast 3 or 4 generations down the road. That is why the warmbloods have the breeding approvals and don't allow them to move up the stud book ranks all at once. Your original cross may be a lovely horse tall and beautiful but its offspring could end up throw backs to a 14.2 hand pony. Obviously we are not all going to breed Olympic quality horses but why wouldn't you aim for the stars. If I was going to cross an arab to a warmblood I would look for a polish Arab with a show record, successful offspring and some height and I would use a warmblood mare. Unfortunately I don't have the time and money to experiment with possibilities. I'm sorry if you find my opinion offensive. I just call it like I see it and yes I am well aware that I see the world in a different way than a lot of people (lol).

        Comment


        • #64
          I love the crossing of arabs and thoroughbreds to many breeds. They are the only "Pure" breeds and maybe this is why QH, Paints, Appys, WB, half-arabs and so on let you cross.
          Arabs are great crosses with the more spanish type horses such as Andalusians and also with Friesans. And from what I recall, every breed goes back to the good old arabian.
          They may not be in top jumper classes, but maybe it is b/c riders prefer the 17H horse over the 15-16 H arabian. There have been some awesome arabian jumpers.
          I am very partial to arabians, even though I have QH and TB's. The anglo-arab is also becoming more popular now.
          I hope people continue to breed the arab and tb into other breeds.
          www.DerbyLynFarms.com

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Arctic Cielo
            I love the crossing of arabs and thoroughbreds to many breeds. They are the only "Pure" breeds and maybe this is why QH, Paints, Appys, WB, half-arabs and so on let you cross.
            Arabs are great crosses with the more spanish type horses such as Andalusians and also with Friesans. And from what I recall, every breed goes back to the good old arabian.

            I have to disagree that thoroughbreds are a "pure" breed. They are only a few centuries old and developed from Barb, arabian and native english mares. I agree that arabs are considered "pure" but they are not the only very old breed out there. Akhal Teke's and Barbs are every bit as old and their origins go way back into antiquity as well. There are others as well I'm sure that should be mentioned.

            I am going to post a link to an online article by Dr. Deb Bennett which is mainly about the origins of the Mustang and it's relations ships to the Barb and Arabian.

            http://www.frankhopkins.com/mustangs.html#

            Scroll down the page and open figure 5. It has a very cool chart that shows the origins of the breeds and what subspecies they sprang from. You'll see the arab came off of one subspecies at the same time the Barb did and you can see what breeds they influenced....certainly not every breed. I wish that chart was more complete and showed all the breeds but it's the only one I know of that goes back that far.

            Edited to add that her article is full of interesting graphs and drawings and she discusses the origins of the different breeds and their interelationships on consecutive pages.
            Last edited by Ridge Runner; Aug. 11, 2006, 03:28 PM.

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            • #66
              Arabs are great crosses with the more spanish type horses such as Andalusians and also with Friesans

              Well, being that we have been breeders of both of these breeds (friesians now) I would have to say that I have yet to see an arab friesian cross I like,however, they could be using poor arab mares and they certainly aren't using dutch stallions. And on top of that, crossbreeding the friesian is why it almost went extinct. It's a HUGE no no. I don't think crossbreeding should be done with rare breeds.

              Comment


              • #67
                Well, I did breed my Barb/Colonial Spanish stallion to an arab mare as a test breeding for his first cross. She was a nicely built little mare but not a great mover...very flat trot and canter. The filly that resulted turned out pretty cute and was a very nice mover...very sporty. I have heard that some folks breed this cross for endurance horses also and they are top notch.

                I have no problem as a rare breed stallion owner crossing him to mares of other breeds but I will not breed my mare to other than a purebred. That is highly discouraged in our breed as we consider our mares too precious to risk for other than a purebred foal.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Some of you have undoubtedly read Chris Hector's interview on the Horse Magazine website, but Werner Schockemohle had the following to say about Arabs in WB breeding:

                  What do you think of the Anglo Arab influence in Hanoverian breeding?

                  "It's not so bad. I think the Arabs of 50, 60 years ago, came from Morocco, and they were heavier horses than today's 'drinker of the winds' with the high tail. Always Arabs have the face of Alabaster! But with their short croups it is very difficult now for the Arabs to produce good riding horses. In former times it was more easy, when the mares were very heay, to use Arab to make them lighter, with better heads."

                  "The Arab influence was only successful in the second, third or fourth generation."

                  "Today the Arab is too far away in their type and way of moving from the top riding horses. The tail is too high, 50% of them have a mistake in the breeding with the tail, so that ft is either to the left or the right that is a real mistake, breeders should not like a horse when the tail is not correct. We would never accept a young stallion at the classification with a mistake in the tail."

                  'In Holstein there was one Arab horse with some influence, Ramzes. He was a top horse, with the ability for showjumping or dressage, but Ramzes was not a classical Arab, he was by a Thoroughbred, Ritterspom, and his dam was Polish Arabian combined a little bit with Hungarian Arabian. I remember seeing Ramzes, he was a little horse, but the riding type. He was a very good jumper for the middle level competition, no more. He produced some Olympic horses for dressage and Olympic horses for showjumping, and he has a lot of influence right up until today. He was the big exception. He was in Westfalien breeding very important for dressage, and in Holstein, very important for showjumping."
                  Liz
                  Ainninn House Stud
                  Irish Draughts and Connemaras
                  Co. Westmeath, Ireland

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Waterwitch, I beleive that says it all.

                    Also, just because a half arab receive good inspection scores, doesn't mean there is a market. Remember, those giving that horse those inspection scores probably don't even live in the U.S.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #70
                      Originally posted by tri
                      Waterwitch, I beleive that says it all.

                      Also, just because a half arab receive good inspection scores, doesn't mean there is a market. Remember, those giving that horse those inspection scores probably don't even live in the U.S.


                      are you serious????

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by friesiandriver
                        Arabs are great crosses with the more spanish type horses such as Andalusians and also with Friesans

                        Well, being that we have been breeders of both of these breeds (friesians now) I would have to say that I have yet to see an arab friesian cross I like,however, they could be using poor arab mares and they certainly aren't using dutch stallions. And on top of that, crossbreeding the friesian is why it almost went extinct. It's a HUGE no no. I don't think crossbreeding should be done with rare breeds.
                        I've seen 3 or 4 who are awesome. Most of the arab/friesian crosses are by Friesian stallions and not out of Friesian mares, so I don't understand why you're saying that doing these crosses would make the breed extinct

                        Rival - I never said anywhere that arabians are the best dressage horses around. If they were, they would be winning the Olympics, wouldn't they? I don't think anyone is claiming that Arabians are the best dressage horses ever. But there are many that make great ones. I have a friend who consistently scores at 70% in 1st level in only the horse's 2nd year of dressage. There is a lovely grey stallion in CA named OKW Entrigue who is consistently winning in dressage (both arab shows and open - although they require USDF judges in arab shows and use USDF tests, so there's not much distinction anyways). Gail Hoff-Carmona used to have a stallion named Serr Maariner who was a very successful dressage horse. Hilda Gurney has always lauded the arabian dressage horse - she too had a pretty nice one, a Half arab mare, and she showed Cal Dorado (another success story).

                        At youth nationals this year, the dressage classes were some of the biggest at the whole show. So much for spooky arabs

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #72
                          I was under the impression that an inspection was to determine quality , not marketability..

                          our colt and others like him don't deserve to be discounted because someone makes an innacurate and unverifiable statement that they are 'unmarketable'.. Quality sells. ... period..always has, always will...to open minded people with a specific purpose or need in mind that a specific horse can fill. If you haven't tried it , don't knock it.

                          and if one doesn't breed and sell arab crosses, then how can one make factual statements about viability?

                          one man, no matter who, does not set a standard or ideal, nor can he be aware of all that is available. There are many many arabs and arab crosses who do not fit this gentleman's description described above and are proving it in the performance arena. And there are many professionals equally esteemed who disagree..All one has to do is a little research..

                          Positive passion is an admirable thing, even if one disagrees..
                          Negative passion is destructive, narrow and limiting..

                          we love horses.. warmbloods are definately a favorite if the right 'type'..and have found fabulous individual sport horses in both breeds, as well as crossing them to achieve specific improvement goals..
                          As another poster said, the perfect, nearly perfect match for many amateurs....

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            I didn't believe that "said it all". It merely showed what I was talking about earlier about Arab assumptions based on what's in their showrings in the past several decades. That is all the majority of people seem to know about Arabs. I don't like flat croups and high set tails either. I do other stuff of income. I don't really care about "marketability". I do what I like about breeding horses and haven't bred a single one that we are "stuck" with or that someone doesn't want to buy that we don't want to keep.
                            www.HistoricHousePreservation.com

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              "My point is that it might be a good idea to cross an Arab to a warmblood from the Arab breeders side of it. I am just not so sure that it is a good idea from the warmblood breeders side."

                              Let's see. A couple well known warmbloods with arab influence include:

                              Inschallah
                              Matcho
                              Rubenstein (through Ramzes)
                              Bolero

                              (Also, regardless of what you believe, the Europeans *do* consider Trakehners to be warmbloods. The other warmbloods are heavily influenced by Trakehner blood. In the US, the GP stallion Moronjo goes back just 2 generations to the trakehner Mahagoni.)

                              "The link by the previous poster is a case in point. It admits that a purebred is not a good choice for open competition."

                              There's more to dressage than competition. And many arabs do well in open dressage competition. In the right hands arabs can be competitive with warmbloods. The breed of choice for someone aspiring to international competition? Obviously not. (Although Harry Boldt *did* ride an anglo-arab, REmus, to individual bronze back in 64 I think.) But being a good dressage horse and being a top competition dressage horse are not synonymous. You won't see a lot of lipizzaners at the Olympics either. My own old arab was schooling FEI at home...I just didn't have the resources to compete him. When I did, he held his own.

                              "It goes on to say that a cross gives you your best chance at success."

                              Which is what this thread is about. Is there a good reason to cross warmbloods with arabs? The F1 cross can give you the best of both worlds.


                              "The problem with the cross is you don't really know if it was a successful refinement until you are atleast 3 or 4 generations down the road."

                              Um, not exactly. Shagya breeders say that the F1 cross often loses size, but by F2 the size is back. The reason they prefer to keep the arab further back in the pedigree is to keep up the size. That is more likely the reason the European warmblood registries also prefer the arab lines further back.

                              Arabs are very prepotent, so their qualities persist generation after generation. You don't need to keep re-introducing arab lines every generation to maintain the influence. Where do you think Rosenthal gets that beautiful head and neck that he stamps all his foals with? Where do so many Rubenstein-line get their arabian head and body types from?

                              On the subject of Rosenthal, just take a look at High Point Hanoverians home page. They're offering breeding specials to arab mares because the first half-arabs by Rosenthal have been so successful.

                              If I were breeding a hanoverian mare, I probably would stick with a warmblood stallion because the resulting foal would likely be worth more on the market (not necessarily a better horse, and very possibly not as nice...just perceived as worth more), and I'm too old to be planning for F3 and F4. On the other hand, if I were part of a multi-generational family of breeders, I would do what was best for my family's long-term goals...and that could easily involve re-introducing arab blood as needed.

                              On the other hand, if I were breeding an arab mare I would seriously consider breeding half-arab warmbloods. The F1 cross would likely be competitive in the half-arab sporthorse world and possibly be equally competitive in open competition.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Mr. Schockemohle also had an opinion on Trakehners:

                                [Regarding the stallion Alabaster] You like to breed him over mares of Trakehner breeding?

                                "No, I don't like so much the Trakehners. I come from another side of breeding, my brothers only discuss showjumpers. I don't like horses that don't have the possibility of being sporthorses. I think there are too many Trakehners without the ability for sport. For some years, I think the Trakehner breeders had it wrong in their heads, they thought when they had the nicest looking horses, they had the best horses. That was a mistake."

                                "In the middle of the 1950's the breeding of horses for agriculture was finished. Along came the tractor and all the breeders had to change their aims. For example in Oldenburg and Holstein they produced very heavy coach horses and for working on the farm. These horses were often over at the knee."

                                "The Trakehner always had horses that had very flat gaits. It was discussed when I was a young man, and even then, I thought it was a terrible mistake. The flat gait is always wrong. The flat gait is always combined with a strong back, not enough elasticity. The Trakehner breeders however believed that the high movement in the trot was extremely wrong, and the flat movement was extremely good."
                                "In reality, we needed more elastic gaits, and they must come more forward, not extremely high, but they must move over the knee - that is important for a showjumper, and it is important for a dressage horse. It is simple. It is necessary to jump clean, and it is important for piaffe and passage, but the Trakehner breeders went the wrong way, and because it is a closed stud book, it is very difficult for them to fix the problem."
                                "For the last ten years, they have been aware of the problem, but it is difficult for them to find a solution because they have to use their own lines, and that is the big problem for the Trakehners, in showjumping as well as dressage."

                                "For that reason, I don't like to see too much Trakehner on the pedigree. When you look at Alabaster's pedigree, you find Absatz in the third generation, and Absatz again in the fifth generation, and in my opinion that is close enough. You still get the wonderful type, and the Absatz is balanced by the other influences, Busoni, Ferdinand, Marcio, Waidmannsdank."

                                edited to add - this is not my opinion, I am just posting it for discussion since this interview seemed particularly relevant to several points brought up in this thread
                                Liz
                                Ainninn House Stud
                                Irish Draughts and Connemaras
                                Co. Westmeath, Ireland

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Something I find rather interesting - is that over in the dressage forum, there are discussions weekly (if not daily) about how hot and difficult and 'sensitive' todays top level dressage horses are. Why is it okay (and even encouraged?) for a warmblood to act in this way, but if an Arabian or half Arab even thinks about it, he's called "hot", "sensitive", "spooky", "stupid" and other adjectives along those lines?

                                  I personally don't get the point about the tails? Having a highset tail as far as I am aware is not any kind of fault. It's actually a part of our breed standard, and I would consider an arabian that did not have high tail carriage to be off type in that respect. Arabians have always had high tail carriage - from the present all the way back to tapestries and George Ford Morris etc depicting them similarly. I don't see why you would want to breed that out or get rid of it. I understand that some people may not like the look of it or whatever - but a fault? Nevermind breeding generation upon generation FOR that characteristic - it's not going to just disappear at your whim Nor should it IMO - dropping the tail carriage from the arabian is kind of like breeding a quarter horse without the ability to run a quarter mile or have 'cow'. Perhaps it's a language barrier issue (as it's obviously been translated) - but this is what I perceive him as saying.

                                  Someone also mentioned the flat croup. A huge misconception is that a flat croup automatically indicates poor athletic ability. Completely untrue. If the hip angle is correct, then it does not matter how flat or sloped (or somewhere in the middle) the croup is. Now - there's the problem - there are quite a few people who breed for a flat croup, without paying attention to that hip angle - because they want the look of the flat croup (anything else is secondary - good or bad). Which means that the horse not only has a flat croup but a poorly built hip, which translates into a horse with a lack of athletic ability and the ability to collect. This is of course flat out not correct. But a horse can have a flatter croup and a proper hip angle and still be correctly conformed and be able to use himself properly. And once again - the "relatively horizontal croup" is a breed characteristic. It's in the breed standard and is something that has been bred for (as I said, for better or worse) and has been in the breed for generation upon generation. As I said, like it or not it IS a breed characteristic.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by Lafeyarabian
                                    Allanglos- you wanted to know about 16H arab stallions. I have personally bred to a stallion named Sanskrit. He's 16H barefoot, was used for endurance, and has the most amazing gaits. I have a stunning yearling colt by him. The colt is huge for an arab, has amazing gaits, and is beautiful too. As for other stallions, these are the names of some other horses whose ads I've pulled as possible breeding canidates KF King of KIngs, Politiciann, Kharbon Khopi, and Dervatiw Gwyddion. They are all 16H, and except for the 1st one who was only 2 when I pulled his ad, they are all doing dressage. There are others that I've seen ads for in my arab magazines, but since I've been breeding to wb's I haven't pulled any ads in a while.

                                    Thanks. I had not heard of King of Kings. I'll have to look him up.

                                    You can also cross Kharbon Khopi off that list. He is 15.2H. (I measured him last year).
                                    Last edited by allanglos; Aug. 11, 2006, 11:39 PM.
                                    The Inverted Y
                                    Thoroughbred and Anglo Arabian Sporthorses
                                    2005 and 2007 USEF Breeder of the Year.
                                    www.allanglos.net

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Half Arab Half Warmbloods have been marketable for us and have proven a good cross. As with any breeding, both individuals need to be chosen carefully to compliment each other as well as improve on each other's faults. A good cross is a good cross and takes time and considerable deliberation before signing that breeding contract. I never enter into any contract without careful consideration to the outcome. The "right" arab put to the "right" warmblood can result in a wonderful outcome.
                                      www.lazyjsporthorses.com

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by Dazednconfused
                                        he's called "hot", "sensitive", "spooky", "stupid" and other adjectives along those lines?

                                        I personally don't get the point about the tails?

                                        .

                                        I am guessing the tail thing is in reference to wry tails. His assumption that 50% have this fault is insane. So, maybe that isn't what he meant?

                                        I am also confused why arabs are considered "Hot", etc. I can only imagine that comes from non-arab owners who see only the "halter-type" displayed at shows. That is a far cry from the true disposition of an arabian. Granted a few can be "hot", but that is true of any breed.
                                        The Inverted Y
                                        Thoroughbred and Anglo Arabian Sporthorses
                                        2005 and 2007 USEF Breeder of the Year.
                                        www.allanglos.net

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by tri

                                          Also, Remember, those giving that horse those inspection scores probably don't even live in the U.S.

                                          You mean they haven't been appropriately indoctinated into our apparently acceptable prejudices, so their judging is less credible?
                                          The Inverted Y
                                          Thoroughbred and Anglo Arabian Sporthorses
                                          2005 and 2007 USEF Breeder of the Year.
                                          www.allanglos.net

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