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warmblood & arab crosses - good idea or bad? (warning LONG!)

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  • Originally posted by Drvmb1ggl3
    The closest up Arab in Winsome Adante's pedigree is 4 generations back.

    If you want to breed top class eventers, I think it makes more sense to look at the 85%+ of WA's pedigree that's TB and not get so hung up on the 10% or that's Arab.

    The first purebred arab is 3 generations back, not four, and his dam's sire is an anglo arabian.

    He is 19% arab, not ~10%.

    He is 69% TB, not 85%+.
    The Inverted Y
    Thoroughbred and Anglo Arabian Sporthorses
    2005 and 2007 USEF Breeder of the Year.


    • "Originally Posted by tri
      #5. You talk of all the pics posted and I've discounted every one"

      "Hmm, I must have missed where you discounted the pics I posted. I didn't find any comments"

      Hmm, me too, I posted a pic of a Polish Arabian we are breeding to warmbloods???


      • Originally posted by Dazednconfused
        Are you so ignorant that you don't realize that people have to PAY for those covers??? The Times or World will be thrilled to have a sporthorse gracing the cover of their magazine as soon as someone pays to have it there! Just because you have a sporthorse doesn't mean you get to have a cover on a magazine and everyone else has to pay for it (oh but YOU get preferential treatment because you have a sporthorse)

        Did I say a sport horse should get a FREE cover? Did I say the Sport Horse should have preferential treatment? Please don't reduce this thread to name calling, surely you are capable of making your point without calling someone ignorant


        • I've seen plenty of poor legged, bad moving, bug-eyed sporthorses - many were scored accordingly. Lots were not. Poor legs and bad movers are not exclusive to halter, unfortunately.
          Uh ho, there's the 'B' word again. Tri will be thrilled.


          • .
            Last edited by Drvmb1ggl3; Dec. 31, 2006, 02:08 AM.


            • Originally posted by Drvmb1ggl3
              You would be greatly mistaken. Here is Winsome Adante's pedigree...

              The first purebred Arab is Ardean who is a great-grandsire. 13 of his 16 g-g-parents are TBs, and one of the remaining 3, Hula, is ½TB. There is 1 unknown g-g-parent who is listed as an Irish bred horse, so it's highly likely too that that part has more than it's share of TB blood. Add all that up and it comes to 85%+.

              Ah, I mistook his dam's pedigree as his. Thanks for the correction.

              I can't find an "Ardean" tho.
              The Inverted Y
              Thoroughbred and Anglo Arabian Sporthorses
              2005 and 2007 USEF Breeder of the Year.


              • Arabian horses are classified as hot bloods as are TB's, they're purpose for being has never ever been to pull a cart or plow.

                Warmbloods, now these are horses whose ancestors were dams who were cart pulling, plow pulling course draft animals, the cart pulling, plow pulling beasts were bred to the hot blooded arabians and TB stallions resulting in an animal called a warmblood.

                What the continental europeans have been trying to do in the past century is to try and breed all the plow and draft out of their horses, but like they say, hard to hide what's in the woodpile.

                Breeding a warmblood mare to an arabian or TB stallion is always an upgrade, has always been an upgrade, that's why the Europeans have done so often.

                The arabian TB cross, now that's the best one, just breeding excellence to excellence, the best to the best.

                I always get the creeps at dressage shows watching these huge drafty warmbloods piaffe and passage, they hit the ground so hard they make the building shake, it's like watching a sumo wrestler out there on a Saturday Night Live ballerina skit. They need some more arabian blood for the sake of the art.


                • Getting back to the actual topic, I think there are couple ways to look at this question.

                  In terms of the actual horses, I think among their other qualities, arabs bring bone density and soundness, super feet, intelligence, trainability, endurance, hardiness, sensitivity and elan. All things from which many warmbloods could benefit.

                  In terms of showing, I would think the best of the half-arabs could be competitive both in the arabian sporthorse division and hold their own in open competition. Are you likely to get an olympic prospect? No. But that's true no matter what you breed. Even among the breeders of top warmbloods, they produce an awful lot of total duds for the rare superstar. There simply are no guarantees. When I was looking, I saw several horrendous, totally un-athletic daughters of Donnerhall out of elite Matcho/Pik Bube mares. That was supposed to be the golden cross of the time, but it didn't seem to work very often.

                  In terms of the market, I wouldn't be surprised to see a trend away from 'supersize' horses in the future. For one thing, space is increasingly at a premium. For another, economic "growth" (such as it is) is benefitting fewer and fewer individuals. Plus I think the AA market was probably heavily fueled by baby-boomers, who are now hitting retirement age. As more of them start bring their horses home, they'll be looking for an easier horse to have in the backyard. I for one am finding that now that I'm out of the big barns, any "keep up with the jones" tendency has been replaced by the thought that I'm the one who will have to repair the barn if the horse accidentally takes out the 300 pound sliding door. My little arab eats less than half the hay (and presumably produces half the manure) as my friend's 17 hand warmblood. He does such good pasture care that I need to get a 2nd horse so I won't have to mow so much.

                  So personally, I think it's potentially a good idea. Your mileage may vary.


                  • This thread is coming to an end and with that, I would like to wish everyone GOOD LUCK for the Canadian Nationals and the Sport Horse Nationals, wish I could be there but with the nationals split, I don't get to see these classes anyone.
                    And, last but not least, I'M NOT A SPORT HORSE OWNER, I've been main ring for eons. (not Halter) I totally admire those who show in sport horse and maybe someday, I will give it a shot.


                    • Original Poster

                      and to all.........a good night.....

                      whew....what a ride


                      • Originally posted by ~Freedom~ View Post
                        Coming to this thread late.
                        So what would you breed a arab-warmblood cross to? Take this question as both sides- first- as a stallion with this cross then a mare with this cross.

                        Can SOMEONE take a few seconds and give me a reply. Thanks


                        • Quote:
                          Originally Posted by ~Freedom~ View Post
                          Coming to this thread late.
                          So what would you breed a arab-warmblood cross to? Take this question as both sides- first- as a stallion with this cross then a mare with this cross.

                          Can SOMEONE take a few seconds and give me a reply. Thanks

                          1/2 Arab mare: to a WB stallion so you can get WB papers.... registered WB is more marketable than 1/2 Arab papers.

                          1/2 Arab stallion: to Arab mares. Unless the stallion is WB inspected the foal has to have an Arab parent for 1/2 Arab papers and foals o/o a WB mare can basically get no papers.
                          Providence Farm


                          • I agree with the above comment. As the Germans learned, the best results come from putting 1/2 Arabian mares to warmblood stallions. This is what I did with my own Han-Arab mare - bred her to warmblood stallions and registered the foals as Oldenburgs.

                            If you are focused on the Arabian / Half-Arabian industry, you might want to go back to an Arabian stallion, but otherwise I would say to put the mare to a WB stallion.

                            And I would also agree to put a 1/2 Arabian stallion to Arabian mares so the foals can be registered. Very few Arabian stallions get approved by the WB registries these days, so the chances of having one in the position to sire registered WB foals is pretty slim.


                            • But if a half-arab stallion is good enough to be approved for breeding:
                              Dawn Jones-Low
                              Faerie Court Farm
                              facebook page


                              • Half-Arab

                                Counter clockwise from the top:
                                Our stallion, Karino's Fire
                                '06 Trakehner filly
                                '05 AWS Filly
                                '06 AWS colt o/o Rhineland mare
                                '06 AWS Filly
                                '05 Trakehner filly

                                Above link is to a collage of my half-Arab stallion & his progeny from his 2005-2006 foals. I am very happy with his offspring & the owners are beyond thrilled with their foals. I see no problem bringing in the Arabian blood through a half Arabian stallion. Many times in the history of successful Sport horses, the blood was brought in on the top, even if the stallion brining on the blood got it from his dam's line. I see no problem with the results we are getting.
                                Christina Hyke
                                *Happy to be trekking on a Trakehner*


                                • This is a little bit of a philosophical tangent, but I think it's interesting to look at the different opinions on incorporating "blood" into the sport horse pedigree. For instance, the Irish have always insisted "blood on top" (at least historically). It seems the WB registries are now prefering blood to come through the distaff side of the pedigree. I'm assuming that this has occured in part because a "good" blood horse is so hard to find and get breeders to use - that it's less risky to incorporate via the dams?
                                  Ainninn House Stud
                                  Irish Draughts and Connemaras
                                  Co. Westmeath, Ireland


                                  • Originally posted by mairzeadoats View Post
                                    Getting back to the actual topic, I think there are couple ways to look at this question.

                                    In terms of the actual horses, I think among their other qualities, arabs bring bone density and soundness, super feet, intelligence, trainability, endurance, hardiness, sensitivity and elan. All things from which many warmbloods could benefit.

                                    All excellent reasons for Arabian blood in sporthorses. I went looking for a warmblood/Arab cross and after a long search found my guy. My only complaint is that the 15.3h three year old grew to almost 17h.

                                    His mother is the Arabian side but she is also a Premium Oldenburg so we show him as Oldenburg. http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rldkad...897re2&.src=ph


                                    • Halfpass - what a lovely boy you have! Who is his sire and dam?


                                      • halfpass, he's gorgeous!!! Here is a pic of our 2006 Warmblood (Mirabeau) Arabian (mostly Polish) palomino filly at her first show. She got a 4th, not bad for a big class at Fair Hill Dressage Breed Show.
                                        Attached Files


                                        • Originally posted by H&P View Post
                                          Halfpass - what a lovely boy you have! Who is his sire and dam?
                                          Thank you, and I thought everyone posted pictures of really nice crosses. I think it makes for a really nice sporthorse if you pick the sire and dam carefully.

                                          My big hunk is by Hilltop Farm's Riverman and his dam is Wuarantee. Her pedigree includes all my favorite old Polish breeding - Guarnteed, El Paso, Gdynia, Comet, Bandola, Priboj, etc. She is a really solid and well conformed mare with lovely movement and a very smooth and athletic body. She has produced three Riverman foals, one of which has two Sporthorse National Championships and a Top Ten. She has produced a beautiful Feiner Stern daugher, who is in foal to Riverman and a Donnerschlag son who was National Champion First Level and is now showing PSG. She is quite the mare and a perfect example of the kind of Arabian to cross with Warmbloods. Pictures of her can be see at: http://dogwoodsporthorses.com