QUESTION: Jumper sire (or dam for that matter) influence on dressage breeding.

[Tiki]

Landadel was a very good mover and has also produced many dressage horses. The thing to do is to pick a jumper sire who is also a very good mover. Just about all of Edgar's horses meet these criteria, Quite Easy produces at least as many very nice dressage horses as jumpers and there are quite a few others. You just don't pick one BECAUSE he is a jumper without all the other stuff in place.

[Edgar]

Being from Holland had me exposed to their way of breeding with lots of Holsteiner /French and TB on top of the older style Dutch horses and those crosses as mentioned above have produced some of the top jumpers and dressage horses in the world. I started looking for stallions with jumping pedigrees who also could produce type and movement. those seem to me the safer choices for a dressage mare or any mare. We succeeded in finding quite a few multi talents. Lots of their offspring have type and great movement besides jump so time will tell if some more have the mental capability and receive the training to end up in the upper levels of dressage. Several allready have. It is a concept I am quite comfortable with and one that seems more commercially interresting.

[fannie mae]

Fannie Mae, I guess occassionally it is done the other way, hence Dolany from Donnerhall for the German Holsteiners. Of course, they have no primarily "dressage mares" as the starting point.

true.
and of course:
exceptions always prove the rule.
there is no such thing like 100% guarantee (to the good or the bad) in breeding.

however, i haven't seen how dolany breeds.
couldn't comment on the securitiy (achieved consolidation or not) of his heritage.
danger is that rather than recieving the best o/o both crosses you end up with the least:
lost jump and damaged dressage. don't know.

i am not too familiar with the holstein breed but from what i understand the introduction of donnerhall to the holst breed was regarded as an experiment by many breeders up there.

i doubt that many serious holst jumper breeders took their preciously bred holst jumper mares to donnerhall.
why should they?
they count and book on the consolidation of their long and well thought of jumping genes.
why experiment adding dressage when that ultimately means to risk the one and only highly holy goal up there (the ultimate jump) that took them hundred years of consolidation to reach in such specialisation ?

i know of one stallion by donnerhall o/o a cordelabryere mare, d'olympic.
greatest dressage horse himself (never saw him jump) and being well used by some eastern german breeders, he happens to be stationed in one of the eastern german state studs.
his get is supposed to be good jumper get and i have seen a few doing good.
i have also seen a few i wouldn't want to introduce to either the one or the other disciplin.
again:
that is a statement that is true for any other given stallion (or mare), too - none of them produce 100% successfully, all of them tend to produce suboptimal, too.
however:
if i do have the chance to limit the theoretically given risk, i do so.
thus, no experiments for me.
even though some of these experiments might as well produce the most stunning horse, you never know.
specially if you consider them endproducts (riding horses only) what is true for 99& of male foals, anyway, since bearly any of them will ever get to breed, anyway.
but if you aim at further breeding i would certainly question the value of the consolidation issue throughout further generations.

[HanoWB88]

LePrimeur

Is LePrimeur a stallion one might breed to a mare with a purely dressage based pedigree (i.e., Rubenstein or Donnerhall) if I want to improve the engine? Or would it only make sense to breed to him if I was looking to produce offspring with more jumper talent? I am not interested in breeding jumpers, but I like his dual attributes.

[stoicfish]

Is LePrimeur a stallion one might breed to a mare with a purely dressage based pedigree (i.e., Rubenstein or Donnerhall) if I want to improve the engine? Or would it only make sense to breed to him if I was looking to produce offspring with more jumper talent? I am not interested in breeding jumpers, but I like his dual attributes.

Really good question. I know that his jumping index is 140 for his offspring, but the dressage is lower at 105. However his stallion son Labiat (at Celle), did equally well in his 300 day test with 120 and 121. Another son (Lougheed) had 111 in dressage and 126 jumping.
In the article I posted, Dr. Christmann's opinion is "but I think we have to consider using some jumping blood to produce especially dressage horses for Grand Prix. Breeding horses to win the Bundeschampionate at the age of four is different from breeding Grand Prix dressage horses. When you look at many top Grand Prix horses they are not the ones that win as three and four year olds"
I believe that many of the index stats are based on performance at the younger ages, so I am not sure they are that informative when looking at producing high end dressage horses.
I also wonder if the jumping infusion is meant to be a F1 or an F2 goal?
Labiat was out of a Werther mare, so it looks to me like they were going for a F2 product (not that F1 might not work too).

[selah]

Is LePrimeur a stallion one might breed to a mare with a purely dressage based pedigree (i.e., Rubenstein or Donnerhall) if I want to improve the engine? Or would it only make sense to breed to him if I was looking to produce offspring with more jumper talent? I am not interested in breeding jumpers, but I like his dual attributes.

We forget that Rubenstein scored higher in jumping than dressage in his stallion testing, and very nearly didn't get tested at all...

http://www.horsemagazine.com/BREEDIN...ubinstein.html

Sometimes I think we try to make it sound much more scientific than it probably is...

[fannie mae]

Is LePrimeur a stallion one might breed to a mare with a purely dressage based pedigree (i.e., Rubenstein or Donnerhall) if I want to improve the engine? Or would it only make sense to breed to him if I was looking to produce offspring with more jumper talent? I am not interested in breeding jumpers, but I like his dual attributes.

you sure can.
i have a photocollection of his entire damline in this album, http://pets.webshots.com/album/249814010Suclde?start=12

there you find another licensed stallion premium*89 by pinkus diadem, full sibling to le primeur's dam palue.
if you flip back to page one in that album you find some impressive pictures of wondergirl by wolkenstein o/o palue, wondergirl is le primeur's half sister. the breeder is greatly taking care of this damline and with wondergirl this has entirley turned into a greatly succesful dressagline as wondergirl has been bred to rotspon a couple of times and delivered the licensed stallion re primeur, an absolute rubberball movement-wonder who became stallion of the year age 3, a title that has been given to mostly promising breeding stallions by the hannoverian verband at their first year of breeding. unfortunately, re primeur turned out to be unfertile, so meanwhile he is gelded and performs in S-class, dressage.
you can find a magazine article on re primeur on that page, too.
than there is roxanne, full sister to re primeur, and still precious part of the broodmare herd of the breeder. she had succesful foals by his highness, later on by scolarie, currently in foal to royal highness. amongst others, wondergirl herself has had foals by locksley II, the two youngest still in ownership of the breeder, incapable to decide which of the two to keep as future broodmares as both are overly promising.

yes, in all due respect:
if there is any double oriented jumper stallion out there who german breeders suffer from having lost to the other side of the pond deeply, it is le primeur.
better make good use of him :-)





and here is a link to an article i worte a while ago about him when it became evident that he was sold to NA. http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum...primeur&page=2

[houserabbitz]

This is an interesting thread for me because I have been thinking about LePrimeur for my Don Frederico/Warkant/Eiger I mare. Thanks for your input, Fannie Mae.

[Foxtrot's]

There is a saying that goes along the lines of it is ok to put a jumper into a dressage line, but one dressage generation in a jumper line is one too many.

[akrogirl]

I have to agree with Edgar that his stallions definitely produce type and movement :-)

I have a wonderful six year old mare by Edgar's stallion, Fuerst Gotthard, out of a TB mare who also has an excellent pedigree for jumping and who has produced several good jumpers previously. My mare can jump, and jump well. Does she want to? - no. Much to the disappointment of a couple of local H/J trainers, she made it abundently clear very early on that she wanted to do dressage. She has three wonderful gaits and has always shown a lot of natural talent for the collected movements so she is being aimed slowly but surely for the upper levels. My mare got her front end from her dam, but she got her "engine" from FG.

On the other hand, my Landkonig youngster out of a Diamont mare seems to be more interested in jumping. She also has wonderful movement and will be started in dressage, but a friend with a lot of experience in such matters keeps telling me she should be a Big Eq horse - we shall see about that, since I aged out more years ago than I care to remember ;-) However, she will defintely be a jumper of some sort. We shall have to see how much of an adverse effect her dressage blood has on her jumping ability.

[Donella]

Le Primeur has not likely been used on a heavy dressage mare base (I could be wrong??) and yet his combined breeding value is still only second to Contendro's. You always have to remember what kind of mares a stallion has likely gotten. He is not likely a horse who reproduces his own type, as the offspring I have seen have been all over the place and outside of Lougheed, look nothing like him. But let me assure you guys, when that horse moves, everything screams dressage!

I was really hoping to use him with our Longchamp/Arkansas/Akzent II mare if frozen doesn't pan out this next cycle. She is a 9 for type mare, and while I would like to add length of leg, I doubt he will (he himself is leggy) but again because his offspring don't seem to look much like him. However, they clearly inherent his athleticism and I am dying to see what he would produce with a real dressage bred mare.

On a bad note, I heard his book is now closed for the year