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Canadian riders, why won't you support Canadian breeders?

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  • Canadian riders, why won't you support Canadian breeders?

    Speaking of pet peeves . . . Here's my biggest one! If you have a lovely, beautiful, successful Canadian Warmblood and someone asks you about his breeding, why lie and say the horse is a Dutch Warmblood/Hanoverian/Oldenburg? Why not be proud that you are sitting on a Canadian bred horse, registered here in Canada with the Canadian Warmblood Horse Breeder's Association (or Canadian Sport Horse, if that is the case)? I see this happen all the time. Recently a rider was very insulted when I corrected her (she called her Canadian Warmblood gelding by Vulcaan a Dutch Warmblood). Do you think that people will like the horse less because it's Canadian not Dutch? Even worse, the same people write "dutch warmblood" on their Equine Canada passports, so CWHBA nevers gets any credit for the horse's success. Is the judge going to score you lower because you're riding a Canadian Warmblood? No wonder the stereotype that Canadian Warmblood horses are not as successful as European horses persists. I have owned Dutch, Oldenburg and CWHBA horses. My most successful horse was a CWHBA mare named Wolkenstar. When people asked me about her I told them "She's a Canadian Warmblood by Wolkenstein II out of Aviary by Arkansas. She was born and bred in Alberta by Krammer Warmbloods" People appreciated this and were often pleased to see such a nice domestically bred horse. Recently I was reading about a very successful Grand Prix dressage horse in Canada named Lindor's Finest. He is listed on his passort as a Dutch Warmblood. Several articles refer to him as a Dutch Warmblood and mention that he is by the TB stallion Eastern Ruler. In fact, he is a Canadian Warmblood and Eastern Ruler has no TB even remotely close in his pedigree. Argh!
    I'm not saying that all Canadian breeders or riders should have CWHBA horses. Buy whatever horse suits your needs best and work with whatever registry works for your program ( I have worked with several). I'm just saying that if you do own/ride/breed a Canadian Warmblood, could you at least be honest about it? Rant over.

  • #2
    Well I have to say I for one am guilty of that. For my past CW horses I would say they are CW but when someone ask which "breed" they are I tend to break it down Dutch/TB/Old cross or Han/QH or whatever cross they might be. Granted I guess most of the European registries are not a "breed" either but a registry; however, for some reason I have always explained my horses that way. So I guess I am a guilty party ;-) I think it more stems from the fact that since a lot of different breeds can be entered into the lower books of many of the registries I just try to be specific as I can with what bloodlines my does horse(s) carry in their pedigree.
    K, not sure if this even makes sense....
    Cindy's Warmbloods
    www.cindyswarmbloods.com Cindy's Warmbloods
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    • #3
      I use to be that way when I was just getting into breeding horses for myself. (rather then other peoples horses I worked with). Now I proudly say it!! Heck...look at my sig at the bottom of this post!! It sums it up quite nice I think!! Two of my mares are SWB but I still register the foals CWHBA because I really like the orginazition and the direction it is heading. And I really want to be a part of the growth of the breed!!
      Elegant Expressions Farm

      Visit us on Facebook too !!


      • #4
        Hmm, well, I can see your point. I own two Canadian WB's that I bought as projects. Both are quite nice, both by liscenced Euro stallions and honestly, the 00 Seven x Faust Z is pretty awesome in both appearance and talent.

        But, I do find that alot of people look puzzled when I say they are CWB. I can't tell you how many people in my own barn think that the one gelding is a Canadian (ie the black, native to Canada breed) because I called him a Canadian wb. I am sort of sick of correcting people but at the same time I can't refer to them as Hano, Dutch, Old ect because they are an amalgamation of different breeds . It is also a pet peeve of mine when people say " he is DutcH" just because one of his parents is...regardless of what the others are.

        And in all honesty, when I hear "he/she is cwb" I admit that I myself am a bit puzzled as to what that means because it could mean anything from half saddlebred x local CWB or it could mean super well bred pedigree like your mare. They do not have a super uniform breeding pool like the Dutch for example. But you are right, people should just be up front about the breed.

        "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.


        • #5
          Originally posted by Donella View Post
          And in all honesty, when I hear "he/she is cwb" I admit that I myself am a bit puzzled as to what that means because it could mean anything from half saddlebred x local CWB or it could mean super well bred pedigree like your mare. They do not have a super uniform breeding pool like the Dutch for example. But you are right, people should just be up front about the breed.
          I have a yearling that is by a CWBHA approved stallion.

          Prior to breeding, when I was looking into getting the mare approved I got the impression that the mares and stallions approved were all of recognized Warmblood breeding (ie European) or in certain cases Thoroughbreds. The way I understood it you couldn't have a half saddlebred or half clyde or some such thing approved for breeding with the CWBHA.


          • #6
            I agree with you there Forte. It is a shame that we can't take more pride in what we as Canadians are producing. I'm seeing more and more Cdn and US bred horses out there that are just as nice as anything imported, and we should take great pride in that. We have taken big steps in recent years in our breeding programs.


            • #7
              Originally posted by Ravencrest_Camp View Post
              I have a yearling that is by a CWBHA approved stallion.

              Prior to breeding, when I was looking into getting the mare approved I got the impression that the mares and stallions approved were all of recognized Warmblood breeding (ie European) or in certain cases Thoroughbreds. The way I understood it you couldn't have a half saddlebred or half clyde or some such thing approved for breeding with the CWBHA.
              You can, and people do.

              Thing is, CWHBA makes a distinction between registered BREEDING stock, and registered RIDING stock. The riding horse book is the G book - horses are issued white registration papers (which is NOT the same as a COP, or Auxiliary book papers). My saddlebred mare is entered in the Auxiliary book, and her filly by a CWB approved stallion was issued white registration papers. And my mare wasn't even inspected by them. I actually like the fact that with CSHA, you can't get registration papers for your foal unless BOTH parents have been inspected and approved for breeding (I did present my mare to them, in 2005). Although the rules may have changed for CWB since I last dealt with them in 2004...

              As for what the OP was referring to, I am guilty of that too... sorry... I absolutely make sure and put "Canadian Sport Horse" or "Canadian Warmblood" (I have 1 of each) on things like entry forms, passports, Coggins, etc... *but*, when people say "OMG, (s)he's gorgeous, what is (s)he??" I make sure and say "(s)he's a Warmblood/Saddlebred cross", and sometimes I add "registered as a (...)". Because I want people to KNOW that half-Saddlebreds make lovely sporthorses - not crazy, gaited, high-stepping freaks.
              That's the only reason I do it... I don't think there's any stigma attached to CDN WB or CSH, and I am very proud to have one registered with each registry..


              • #8
                I think this thread is interesting given the many times, on threads proposing the creation of a universal US WB registry, people have offered the CWBHA as an example to follow, claiming that it is so well-regarded, etc.

                I'm seeing more and more Cdn and US bred horses out there that are just as nice as anything imported, and we should take great pride in that.
                Sounds like breeders face the same issues in Canada.
                Roseknoll Sporthorses


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Donella View Post
                  And in all honesty, when I hear "he/she is cwb" I admit that I myself am a bit puzzled as to what that means because it could mean anything from half saddlebred x local CWB or it could mean super well bred pedigree like your mare. They do not have a super uniform breeding pool like the Dutch for example. But you are right, people should just be up front about the breed.
                  I am proud of what comes out of Canada. Many of the breeders are doing a really, really good job. But I can see Donella's point when she asks what it means. Usually, a title is somewhat defining. I do not have issue with "other" breeds besides Warmbloods, however the term CWB is not very narrowing in definition when speaking of warmblood type. We are too new and there are too many animals entering to be able to speak of CWB as a homologous group, yet. I actually think that it is the greatest strength, that breeders can pick the best stallion to go with their best choice of mare, and have a place to paper the results. It is very flexible and can have quicker results.
                  There may be a propensity to register "anything", by irresponsible breeders but then again there are some of the other registries that have less than desirable horses. It is simply a tool, and not a guarantee. But how many people actually think that the European registries are a guarantee of quality in of themselves?
                  I think we will just learn to use a different language when we talk about CWB, like "it is a CWB with such and such lines, or a background of Dutch and Trak. We do the same thing to describe ourselves. I am Canadian with Welsh heritage.


                  • #10
                    I'm not Canadian, but I do have a Canadian Warmblood mare. If I tell people that's what she is they say, "yeah, but what *kind* of warmblood?" So I typically skip the first part and just say "Oldenburg." On the flip side, if I ask someone what their Canadian or American Warmblood horse is, I really mean "what breed(s) is your horse?" not "what registry is your horse part of?"
                    Flying F Sport Horses
                    Horses in the NW


                    • #11
                      I believe its because the European registries have been around for so much longer that people view them as "breeds" rather than "registries" like the CWBHA. And since they have been around much longer people automatically view them as superior.

                      Its a shame because Canada is producing some very competitive horses in the market today and I think the more Canadian Warmbloods are around (and actually refered to as Canadian Warmbloods lol) the more people will realize this. CW's are still relatively new to the breeding world so it will just take time for them to get as popular and well known as say a Dutch or Hanno.

                      Just my view....
                      Starflower Stables


                      • #12
                        To be fair, the various registries are frequently associated with particular disciplines and/or characteristics, right or wrong, so it makes sense that people would seek information that is perceived as more specific (though obviously it is the actual lines and individual that matter, and one particular pedigree might be eligible for registration with multiple registries anyway). For example, some associate Hanoverians with dressage, Selle Francais with jumping, Dutch WB with jumping and dressage, etc. Some steer clear of trakehners (though my experience with this breed has only ever been very positive).

                        Isn't it possible to say your horse is a Dutch WB bred in Canada, for example, and still be proud the horse is Canadian bred? I don't see why people need a particular label on their horse to show their pride in their horse's origins.
                        Roseknoll Sporthorses


                        • #13
                          To support Canadian Breeders, the Canadian Warmblood isn't the only option! There are many breeders in Canada that have a variety of warmbloods which would include some of the European breeds, of course. Don't get me wrong, we have Canadian Warmbloods in addition to KWPN horses...and I like both.

                          Agree with Donella though....I have a major pet peeve with those who advertise their horses as "Dutch Warmbloods" when in fact only one parent is KWPN. Of course, that could be said for any registry and it is just as annoying. One thing I'd like to see is more advertising sites that have the Canadian Warmblood as a breed option, there are several this still do not!
                          Proud Momma:

                          Imax - Fresstyle x Juventus x Rubinstein
                          2014 - Sister to IMAX (hopefully)


                          • #14
                            Isn't it possible to say your horse is a Dutch WB bred in Canada, for example, and still be proud the horse is Canadian bred? I don't see why people need a particular label on their horse to show their pride in their horse's origins.

                            Well, I don't need to.
                            Call me unloyal or whatever but I just don't feel that burning desire to have to label my horses Canadian....I just want to breed good dressage horses and register them with a registry that has breeding goals, standards ect that match mine. Simple as that.

                            But I do not have a problem actually admiting that my two geldings are CWB whatsoever. I don't think most people even care that much what they are lol.

                            "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.


                            • Original Poster

                              Just to clarify, I am not saying that all warmblood horses bred in Canada should be labelled Canadian Warmbloods, nor do I think that all warmblood breeders in Canada should register with the CWHBA. In fact, I am breeding one of my Canadian Warmblood mares this year, and I will register the resulting foal with GOV, because for this particular breeding GOV meets my needs. If people ask me what the foal is, I will tell them that it is an Oldenburg that was bred in Canada.
                              All I am saying is that if you do happen to own/ride a wonderful CWHBA registered horse, and people ask you what it is, could you at least tell them that it is a Canadian Warmblood? You can always qualify it by saying "He is a Canadian Warmblood horse. His sire is the Dutch Stallion 00 Seven" or you could say "He is a Canadian Warmlood with mostly Dutch lines" . But if people keep calling their high quality CWHBA horses Dutch/Hano/Old, then it keeps perpetuating this notion that there are no good CWHBA horses.
                              I think a great example of top notch CWHBA breeding is Sentinel Hill Farm http://sentinelhillfarm.blogspot.com/ They use truly world class lines (mostly Dutch) for their jumper breeding program. Their horses are Canadian Warmblood registered. Here's how they describe one of their stallions "Windsor is a rising 5-year-old Canadian Warmblood stallion by the Holsteiner stallion Indoctro, out of the Keur Preferent Dutch Warmblood mare Fanieta, who is by Olympic Ahorn." Totally clear and accurate description of the horse's registration and breeding and credit given to the Canadian breeders and registry that produced him.


                              • #16
                                What is a Canadian Warmblood?

                                I thought it was a type not a breed? Don't they still accept any recognised warmblood breeds as a Canadian Warmblood? So long as it's just a register of horses of a type then I'm not surprised that people describe them as the breed they actually are.

                                That's no different to over here where we have a register for Sportshorses. I've got a lot of horses that are on that register but if someone asks me what they are I don't say "a sportshorse". I say a t/b or a t/b cross connemara, t/b x irish draft etc. etc.

                                If I'm correct in understanding that the Canadian Warmblood is just a register of types such as Hanovarian etc then it's understandable. If I'm right in my thinking and it's just a book that records a mass of different warmblood breeds then it's not even yet established what it's wanting to achieve.

                                Whilst it can be argued to some extent that all breeds are ultimately an amalgamation of different sorts (breeds of horse) to say a type is a breed is to demonstrate lack of understanding of how a breed is established. It's got to be honed to specific conformation traits and type and then over generations established firmly and then permitting only those horses to establish a purity over time which means you then don't go out of the breed.

                                CWB are FAR away from that aren't they?
                                Last edited by Thomas_1; Jul. 5, 2009, 02:59 AM.


                                • #17
                                  In my ever so humble opinion, it is NEVER going to happen, because NON ONE can seem to agree on what *TYPE* and what *LOOK* and what *ATTRIBUTES* they want to see in their Canadian Warmblood (CWHBA) or Canadian Sport Horse (CSHA)

                                  Look at the wide disparity of stallions and broodmares in each Canadian registry!

                                  Everything from full TB's that have F1 papers, to "WB" stock that have "unknown" as close as their 2nd generation that I 100% know is not a breed that ANY WB breeder would want within their breeding program! To Paints, to Quarter Horses, etc. All very nice horses, but NO WARMBLOOD BREEDER wants these bloodlines in their structured breeding program, especially as close up as the 2nd/3rd generations!

                                  I have asked a multitude of times "What constitutes a CSHA or CWHBA ideal stallion? My full TB stallion? The much heavier Irish Draught stallion - Steeped in Luck? The heavier crossbred stallion like Santar (now deceased) who produced some wonderful babies? Dressage types? Field hunters? Jumpers? Hunters? The new European imports? The old Canadian stock that has been established through generations in our country?

                                  Which is it?

                                  And no one seems to have an answer and I have posted this same question, ad nauseum, on so many threads and have yet to receive even one single reply, even when officials and inspectors from both registries are present on those threads. They conveniently go very very quiet ...

                                  So - we are asking to stamp what we are producing with the CWHBA or CSHA stamp and moniker, but ***WE*** as the breeders and the association dont have a clue what that type or breed represents on the world stage. If that means all TB blood or mostly TB blood which is what my specific breeding program is producing, full Irish Draught which is what Steeped in Luck is, part Trakehner and part unknown which is what FE Copper Top is, part APHA which is where Outrageous Fortune fits in - all VERY different types, breeds and looks

                                  No wonder buyers dont have a clue what a "Canadian bred" is - we cant even figure it out ourselves as the actual breeders!

                                  Does anyone out there have a clue what type and look and breed both of these Canadian associations are trying to breed towards so we can present some sort of uniformity and cohesion going forward instead of bemoaning the fact that the "Canadian" part of the equation is never mentioned by the breeders???

                                  True Colours Farm on Facebook


                                  • #18
                                    No offence to the CSHA but I feel that the CWHBA is far closer to getting a Canadian type. I used to be heavily involved with the CSHA and I feel that the CWHBA is better run and moving with the times whereas the CSHA seems to be stuck in one era.

                                    Might be a bit off topic but that's just MHO....= )

                                    But I do agree with what TC said in the above post. Its like both the CSHA and CWHBA can't make up their minds and stick with one type and just approve that type. But I feel the CSHA is a lot more confused...just look their their stallion directories...
                                    Starflower Stables


                                    • #19
                                      I think TC and Starflower have raised legitimate points.
                                      On a sidebar, re trying to support Cdn bred horses, I truly wish that sporthorse announcers would include breeding references when they describe competition horses entering or leaving the ring. Something like "a Hanoverian registered ( or Canadian Warblood registered ....) gelding by the sire XXX out the xx-daughter xxx, bred in Canada by xxx"
                                      On Eurodressage, they always mention bloodlines of competitors (which makes it oh so interesting), and they do at competitions there too. A practice we should adopt!!
                                      Sunny Days Hanoverians


                                      • #20
                                        I have a mare registered CSHA, but when people ask what she is, I say Swedish. I also intend to get her Swedish papers at some point.


                                        I had to many people "but what IS she?" when I said she was CSHA, and if I ever decide to sell I want to be able to list her as Swedish.
                                        "Adulthood? You're playing with ponies. That is, like, every 9 year old girl's dream. Adulthood?? You're rocking the HELL out of grade 6, girl."