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"Coloured" 3/4-7/8th TB or WB but none/few at the top?

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  • florida foxhunter
    replied
    JB.....you may not be seeing them at Devon lately, but they have won! Again, one has to breed for conformation and quality first, not color........and then pray the "spots" land in the right place....
    We were very fortuate with Claim to Fame. Not only did he WIN at Devon (came in RIGHT behind Kenny Wheeler in Best Young Horse TOO!)......he also WON MANY TIMES IN conformation Models (Green Conformation divisions)........beating an ENTIRE class of SOLID horses!!!
    It's just very hard to get the quality, conformation, color in the right places and then money to campaign them (these days especially) !! BUT>>>>>it can be done! Many of his foals have done well too........they're finally just getting into the ring u/s now!

    I'll add a photo of his latest daughter........I have high hopes for her too! (the photo thingy wasn't working....I'll add it later)

    Leave a comment:


  • TrueColours
    replied
    My Puchi Trap mare is dual registered as a Paint with the APHA in the Regular Registry so any/all of her offspring by a TB stallon, can achieve dual registration status - either Breeding Stock or Regular Registry - depending on how much white they have

    A huge portion of my buying market used to be the Paint people, looking for a full TB for the HUS classes, that also had APHA papers. They did find though that most trainers tried to train the yearling and 2 year old TB's in the same way as they trained the yearling and 2 year old APHA youngsters. The trainers didnt appear to be willing to change their training methods to accomodate the different TB way of doing things and the TB youngsters didnt thrive on the box they were being asked to squish into and so the full TB's fell out of favor rather quickly with the APHA crowd for the HUS classes ...

    Leave a comment:


  • woweezowee
    replied
    woweezowee you've unintentionally illustrated one of the main problems facing pinto warmblood/sporthorse breeders, as far as stereotyping and prejudice. This was what was touched on earlier, by JB, myself and others.

    There are many people like you and your family member who see a pinto, and think Paint. Because Paints are mostly viewed negatively in the warmblood/sporthorse world (and aren't accepted into most of the respected registries), it can lead to stereotyping and prejudice against all pintos, when people see them and automatically assume they must be Paints.
    I know the difference between a pinto and a paint

    (even though I incorrectly said "YET I am not in the market for a horse but my jaw drops every time I see a paint in the ring or for sale online" (and I meant that in a positive, "so jealous I don't have that horse" jaw-dropping way))

    But, it proves that even some experienced horse people aren't aware that pinto coloring isn't genetically unique to stock horses AND in my family's case, that people aren't of this (as in this thread) : the amount of people who are pushing for "colour blind" or at least colour neutral treatment.

    BTW, I am looking for a pinto sportpony/part welsh stallion for my mare. Any suggestions?

    Leave a comment:


  • M. O'Connor
    replied
    Originally posted by pwynnnorman View Post
    Just wondering here. Over the years, there have been some very, very nicely bred "coloured" horses (I'm using the British spelling out of respect for their very respectful "coloured" showing divisions!). But with only a very few exceptions--and those almost exclusively in hunters or dressage and almost exclusively WBs, it seems to me--no Appaloosa, Pinto, Paint or Palomino crosses have reached a kind of "famous" level in eventing or jumpers, and very few in dressage or hunters.

    Is there a particular reason, do you think? Any of the following?

    A. With even just a smidgen of colored blood, the result lacks sufficient talent.
    B. Not enough of them are being bred, so the odds are against one having enough talent to get to the top.
    C. The WAY they are produced (what is crossed to get them) precludes producing top-level talent.
    D. Riders capable of or seriously looking to get to the top won't give them a second glance, so they never get the opportunity to prove their talent.
    E. No one (or just very few) buy them or breed them as potential top-level talent, so they become self-fulfilling proficies.
    F. Those who like them can't afford to (or just don't care to) take them as far as they might go (in those particular sports, that is).
    G. Something else.

    Again, just curious as I wait for the rain to end so I can pick up a load of hay.
    I would guess a combination of C, E, and F.

    When someone first comes to the sport, the thing that jumps out is color. Some people never get past that, even though they become breeders. What they look for is COLOR, and performance is incidental. A true measure of performance is open competition, not breed competition.

    I honestly do not have a color bias (my first horse was a palomino paint), but when judging, I see very few horses of color that perform well enough for me to use them in the higher placings. It seems colored horses are more numerous in the lower levels, where what we used to call a "grade" blooded horse provides a more suitable ride for lower level riders.

    Interestingly, this applies more to horses than ponies. Colored ponies don't seem to lack in quality across the board, the way colored horses seem to.

    I guess if you purposefully went toward PERFORMING color, you could manage to produce some nice horses (Art Deco comes to mind). Otherwise, I'd have to look at the performance records of the sires and dams being used, and conclude that there really isn't much there to begin with.

    Leave a comment:


  • JB
    replied
    Originally posted by dressuursport View Post
    A registered pinto warmblood is worlds away from a Paint.
    I am sure *I* know what you mean, but I think others might take this the wrong way, so if I may

    There are some really, really nice APHA (paint) horses out there who are largely TB and you'd never know they had any stockhorse blood in them at all. Take a look at any spotted HUS horse and you'll see what I mean. Even a full TB can be registered APHA, therefore technically (also) be a Paint. It just won't be Tobiano And, technically, that horse could be approved for WB breeding (though I'm sure all the WB registries would have just keeled over at the thought of approving a horse who looked like Racey Remarque )

    Leave a comment:


  • dressuursport
    replied
    woweezowee you've unintentionally illustrated one of the main problems facing pinto warmblood/sporthorse breeders, as far as stereotyping and prejudice. This was what was touched on earlier, by JB, myself and others.

    There are many people like you and your family member who see a pinto, and think Paint. Because Paints are mostly viewed negatively in the warmblood/sporthorse world (and aren't accepted into most of the respected registries), it can lead to stereotyping and prejudice against all pintos, when people see them and automatically assume they must be Paints.

    There are pinto warmbloods and sporthorses out there with no Paint in their pedigrees whatsoever. (There are palomino, buckskin, and cremellos which are warmbloods too, with no stockhorse breeding.)

    Public perception and awareness of color possibilities hasn't caught up with the progress we've made in breeding.

    Wowee, I wouldn't rule out breeding for a pinto. If you're new to "colour", you may want to see this site www.silverwoodfarm.com With a TB mare your foal should even be eligible for warmblood registration, if you choose an approved warmblood stallion. A registered pinto warmblood is worlds away from a Paint.

    from a previous post on this thread:
    Over here, "color" is typically thought of as belong to the stock-type horses which just aren't suitable (in general!) for the sporthorse disciplines we're talking about here.
    JB nailed the cause for most of the prejudice against colored horses. There are many people who don't know the difference between Paint and pinto, and assume everything colored is some sort of Paint/QH/stockhorse/undesirable. They don't realize you can now get warmbloods and well bred sporthorses with pretty colors and not even a drop of stockhorse blood.

    Leave a comment:


  • JB
    replied
    Originally posted by woweezowee View Post
    I just proposed breeding our TB mare to a colourful sport pony... Family member: "there's no market for that. how many paints did you see in the ring at Devon this year?"
    Omega produced a very fancy, minimally marked Tobiano mare named All Dressed UP who placed 2nd at Devon (and Upperville). Claim to Fame won Best Colt at Devon in 2000.

    Are they common? No. Why? For the same reason these 2 (3?) current threads have been going on - they are a minority to begin with, therefore in any given sporthorse venue they are much less likely to even be there, much less win.

    If everyone keeps the attitude "well you don't see them at Devon" then they will never get there


    Q: So many hunter horse ads stress "chrome" and a lot of people breed for white markings (stockings and big blazes)... but not for even a little more white? And, does the "hunter prejudice" against colour have to do with the original use of hunters as in, the horse best matched to the traditional hunt (most true to type?)?

    A: it goes back to what we talked about earlier - in the English world, the prejudice was, for a long time, that "spots = stock horse therefore not suitable to hunters/dressage/jumpers." Then Art Deco and a few others came along, and there has been a growing fascination with the colors and spots

    Leave a comment:


  • BravAddict
    replied
    Hm, no. I'm aware of that, though.

    This is my question:

    Camohn said, rightly, that different coat patterns have different sources. They are on different genes, of course, but I think she meant that with tobiano and sabino, the DNA "copyediting software" of the body can pare out some of the KIT sequences that were inverted (as in tobiano), or missing an exon (as in sabino1). This means that even in the homozygous state, there is still a way to make enough proper KIT protein for the animal to survive. By contrast, the mutation on the EDNRB gene is a complete loss-of-function, without any way to "rescue" the directions for making the EDNRB protein. In the heterozygous state, all the "bum" copies of EDNRB are just thrown out and the good copies are used where the protein is critical. This gives us the frame pattern, with a normal bowel. The protein is required to innervate the colon. If there is no normal copy of EDNRB, there is also no way for the "copyediting software" to repair it. This, presumably, is what makes frame/LWO and potentially DW "lethal." I'm just thanking our collective lucky stars that if DW is lethal, it's lethal before we have some newborn, downy-white darling asleep in the straw.
    Essentially, I believe camohn was commenting on the fact that the NATURE of the mutation plays a role in whether it is deleterious or not.

    My confusion is that belambi responded to this saying "Which is why there is no visual similarity between the "design" of the patterns on clones..". Again, the substance is true; clones do not have the exact same markings. If anyone (and this I very much doubt) read what I wrote on the other thread, I talked about stochastic events and their role in white markings. To sum it up very briefly, a zygote goes from 1 cell to billions during development, which is MANY rounds of division and MANY little "events" that go one way or another, randomly. These events affect the visual appearance of white markings, and in a process of THAT many steps, it's simply impossible to exactly replicate the same exact process. If you flip a coin 100 times and record each H/T result, and then repeat it, do you think the pattern of heads-tails-tails-tails-heads-etc. would be exactly the same? Certainly not. So that is why clones do not have the exact same outline of their markings.
    I am unclear how her statement depends on camohn's comments.."Which is why". Is my question clear now?

    Leave a comment:


  • woweezowee
    replied
    Down with Pinto Prejudice!

    I just proposed breeding our TB mare to a colourful sport pony... Family member: "there's no market for that. how many paints did you see in the ring at Devon this year?"

    this is what might be keeping the "spots and stripes" out of the ring (for hunters and hunter breeding). We are a small family farm and each foal is a big investment (money, time, and a breeding season for the 2 broodmares we have). Especially in these economic times, people might not be willing to take the risks of breeding if there's already a given prejudice floating around at the Rated & big local shows.

    YET I am not in the market for a horse but my jaw drops every time I see a paint in the ring or for sale online. AND every little girl wants a flashy pony!

    Q: So many hunter horse ads stress "chrome" and a lot of people breed for white markings (stockings and big blazes)... but not for even a little more white? And, does the "hunter prejudice" against colour have to do with the original use of hunters as in, the horse best matched to the traditional hunt (most true to type?)?

    Leave a comment:


  • SilverSpringFarm
    replied
    Originally posted by BravAddict View Post
    I should have clarified. I'm unclear on how that relates to what camohn said:
    "With different coat patterns they have different sources. Tobiano and sabino only affect protein (coat color) regulation and there are no problems/defects associated with them. ."

    With frame overo you have the possibility of lethal white. With splash you have the possibility of deafness. Tobiano and sabino have no known physical defects associated with them. I believe that is what you were asking but I may be mistaken.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fancy That
    replied
    Utah gives me goosebumps! he rocks

    Originally posted by Cartier View Post
    Utah Van Erpekom has done rather well as a Grand Prix Show Jumper with John Whittaker. I believe Utah is indisputably the most successful Pinto Stallion in sport...world wide... ever. I can't think of any Pinto stallion anywhere in the world that even comes close to what Utah has accomplished in sport. Here is a link to Utah's website and a few YouTube videos of him.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9Exe...eature=related

    http://www.utah-van-erpekom.co.uk/news.htm

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9qzF...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK7BZi5i-88

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj3C2...eature=related


    and, just have to add this link to John and the great show jumper Milton (with Tina Turner)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pxwYCURa3U
    When this thread popped up, the first thing I thought of is Utah. How can one argue with that talent? The boy's got HOPS! I don't think John would care if he was purple!

    Leave a comment:


  • dressuursport
    replied
    Over here, "color" is typically thought of as belong to the stock-type horses which just aren't suitable (in general!) for the sporthorse disciplines we're talking about here.
    JB nailed the cause for most of the prejudice against colored horses. There are many people who don't know the difference between Paint and pinto, and assume everything colored is some sort of Paint/QH/stockhorse/undesirable. They don't realize you can now get warmbloods and well bred sporthorses with pretty colors and not even a drop of stockhorse blood.

    Leave a comment:


  • BravAddict
    replied
    This I know. Did your comment have nothing to do with the second part of the statement?

    Tobiano and sabino only affect protein (coat color) regulation and there are no problems/defects associated with them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Altamont Sport Horses
    replied
    Originally posted by stolensilver View Post
    I think the main reason there aren't more coloured at the top of the sport is firstly because there are relatively few coloureds being bred compared to non-coloureds. And I also think that there are a depressingly large number of breeders, past and present, who bred for colour at the expense of quality. Fortunately now the quality of coloured horses is improving and there are some out there that are outstanding. Since the popularity of coloured horses is very high I'm sure that there will be more coloured world class athletes appearing in the next few years.
    I also agree with this statement. And while there are breeders who are focusing on producing colored sport horses of quality, there just aren't that many being produced yet. And there is probably a reluctance of some top level riders to consider colored horses based on what has been produced in the past.

    We breed Trakehners and Appaloosa Sport Horses with focus on athletic ability, conformation, mind, etc. Of course we choose Appaloosas with sport horse type bodies and movement. Our first Trakehner x Appaloosa foal in 2007 was not born with a spotted pattern but we were impressed enough with her mind, spirit and athleticism that we repeated the cross knowing that we had a 50% chance of no pattern again. The 2007 filly is currently an awkward girl but still has a great mind and is becoming a beautiful snowflake roan. Her full sister, Tanzanite, was born a week ago and is a very nice filly topped off with a lovely blanket. I am expecting there to be quite a bit of interest in Tanzanite.

    I'd say the market is definitely improving for colored sport horses. I don't know if it will be as great for the upper levels yet but I have been amazed at how much interest we have had in our colored horses versus our purebreds. I decided to keep our 2008 purebred leopard filly Waps A Daisy as a broodmare prospect for this very reason. When I decided not to sell her I had prospective buyers offering me in excess of her already healthy asking price. That is a strong statement in my mind.

    We have a homebred Appaloosa X TB stallion (foaled 2004) named Hollywood Hot Spot. His dam was a Holsteiner approved broodmare and has produced some very nice foals. This young stallion has the movement to excel in upper level dressage. We have not tested his interest or aptitude for jumping yet as we are taking it very slow with him. I have the confidence in him to put the money into quality training and seeing just how far we can take him. We are working on getting him started with a upper level eventer very soon but focusing first only on the dressage. I'd like to see more Appaloosas reaching the top levels and I believe in my heart that he could be one of them.

    With the interest I have seen in Appaloosa sport horses I am seriously considering breeding my purebred Trakehner mare to our homozygous appaloosa stallion (sire of Hollywood Hot Spot) for a 2010 foal. That would be a beautiful cross and we would be guaranteed a spotted pattern at birth...a win-win. And since the stallion carries the cream gene we'd have the potential bonus of palomino or buckskin to top it off.

    Leave a comment:


  • kookicat
    replied
    Originally posted by belambi View Post
    basically i am trying to say something along the lines of..the layout ,or representation of the pattern is not genetic..only the type of pattern is?..(I know..it still sounds wrong!)
    I understand what you mean. They type of patten (be it Tobiano, Overo etc), but where the white goes will change.

    Leave a comment:


  • belambi
    replied
    basically i am trying to say something along the lines of..the layout ,or representation of the pattern is not genetic..only the type of pattern is?..(I know..it still sounds wrong!)

    Leave a comment:


  • BravAddict
    replied
    Originally posted by JB View Post
    Clone a pinto and the markings are not identical. Generally they're in the same place, ie a "parent" with white on the face will produce a clone with white on the face, but not the same design.
    I should have clarified. I'm unclear on how that relates to what camohn said:

    With different coat patterns they have different sources. Tobiano and sabino only affect protein (coat color) regulation and there are no problems/defects associated with them. .

    Leave a comment:


  • kookicat
    replied
    Originally posted by grayarabpony View Post
    In the 90's Pippa Funnel evented a gelding named Bits and Pieces at 4* level. He was part Tinker Pony.
    http://www.britisheventing.com/asp-n...n=000100010018

    Leave a comment:


  • JB
    replied
    Originally posted by BravAddict View Post
    What?
    Clone a pinto and the markings are not identical. Generally they're in the same place, ie a "parent" with white on the face will produce a clone with white on the face, but not the same design.

    Leave a comment:


  • BravAddict
    replied
    Originally posted by belambi View Post
    Which is why there is no visual similarity between the 'design' of the patterns on clones..
    What?

    Leave a comment:

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