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"Coloured" 3/4-7/8th TB or WB but none/few at the top?

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    #61
    There was (is?) a palomino eventer named Welton Gold whom Julie Richards rode in the early '00s. I want to say he ran around FoxHall in '02, but I really can't recall for sure... also not sure of his breeding, but I would assume he was from the Welton stud in England, and probably has a high percentage of TB in him.

    ((Please correct me if I'm mistaken! I just googled him and couldn't find much info, so I'm going mostly from memory))

    Edited to add: He's listed as a full TB on the USEA site...
    -Jessica

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      #62
      Cloverlone-
      A very interesting program. How long have you been breeding for spots and how did you start? How has your program been accepted by the registries and how are you registering your horses?

      I would love to know since I breed dilute Holsteiners (Mostly Holstein Bloodlines, but some different registries).
      Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most...now where did I put those marbles...
      Secretary, WTF Registry

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        #63
        Originally posted by camohn View Post
        QUOTE:
        .
        With different coat patterns they have different sources. Tobiano and sabino only affect protein (coat color) regulation and there are no problems/defects associated with them. .

        Which is why there is no visual similarity between the 'design' of the patterns on clones..
        www.australiancolouredperformancehorses.com.au

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          #64
          We find with our sportshorses that the best method,especially for colour is to not breed app to app.. ie,this one who is out of a solid app mare by a Warmblood stallion
          http://i39.tinypic.com/2wq8krq.jpg
          www.australiancolouredperformancehorses.com.au

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            #65
            Circus is a Shaab son. You can almost guarantee that he didn't get his color from that side of the family but that's where a lot of his eventing prowess came from.

            His dam lines don't look TB at all. None of them, except his dam sire are on sporthorse breed database. I looked him up on NED, and they didn't have pedigree information on the dam side. He is an elite level eventer and also has points in straight dressage and Class C show jumping.

            These folks are standing three coloured stallions in the UK
            http://www.groomsbridgestud.com
            One is a cremello from Aurum. To prevent creating another cremello he will not be bred to dilute mares.
            Another is Sambertino, who is very flashy and quite lovely, but doesn't seem to have a KWPN breeding license.

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              #66
              Culdoach lady Jane was the dam of a number of seriously succesful event horses..one of them being Windpower Pioneer.. who was also sired by Shaab.
              Shaab is the sire also of Uptons Deli Circus, Who is out of a mare out of Culdoach Lady Jane (Hope that makes sense!)
              http://www.britisheventing.com/asp-n...?HorseId=30891
              www.australiancolouredperformancehorses.com.au

              Comment


                #67
                Originally posted by belambi View Post
                Which is why there is no visual similarity between the 'design' of the patterns on clones..
                What?
                Disclaimer: My mom told me that people might look at my name and think I had an addiction other than horses. I don't; his name was Bravado.

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                  #68
                  Originally posted by BravAddict View Post
                  What?
                  Clone a pinto and the markings are not identical. Generally they're in the same place, ie a "parent" with white on the face will produce a clone with white on the face, but not the same design.
                  ______________________________
                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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                    #69
                    Originally posted by grayarabpony View Post
                    In the 90's Pippa Funnel evented a gelding named Bits and Pieces at 4* level. He was part Tinker Pony.
                    http://www.britisheventing.com/asp-n...n=000100010018
                    Horse Show Names Free name website with over 6200 names. Want to add? PM me!

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                      #70
                      Originally posted by JB View Post
                      Clone a pinto and the markings are not identical. Generally they're in the same place, ie a "parent" with white on the face will produce a clone with white on the face, but not the same design.
                      I should have clarified. I'm unclear on how that relates to what camohn said:

                      With different coat patterns they have different sources. Tobiano and sabino only affect protein (coat color) regulation and there are no problems/defects associated with them. .
                      Disclaimer: My mom told me that people might look at my name and think I had an addiction other than horses. I don't; his name was Bravado.

                      Comment


                        #71
                        basically i am trying to say something along the lines of..the layout ,or representation of the pattern is not genetic..only the type of pattern is?..(I know..it still sounds wrong!)
                        www.australiancolouredperformancehorses.com.au

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by belambi View Post
                          basically i am trying to say something along the lines of..the layout ,or representation of the pattern is not genetic..only the type of pattern is?..(I know..it still sounds wrong!)
                          I understand what you mean. They type of patten (be it Tobiano, Overo etc), but where the white goes will change.
                          Horse Show Names Free name website with over 6200 names. Want to add? PM me!

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                            #73
                            Originally posted by stolensilver View Post
                            I think the main reason there aren't more coloured at the top of the sport is firstly because there are relatively few coloureds being bred compared to non-coloureds. And I also think that there are a depressingly large number of breeders, past and present, who bred for colour at the expense of quality. Fortunately now the quality of coloured horses is improving and there are some out there that are outstanding. Since the popularity of coloured horses is very high I'm sure that there will be more coloured world class athletes appearing in the next few years.
                            I also agree with this statement. And while there are breeders who are focusing on producing colored sport horses of quality, there just aren't that many being produced yet. And there is probably a reluctance of some top level riders to consider colored horses based on what has been produced in the past.

                            We breed Trakehners and Appaloosa Sport Horses with focus on athletic ability, conformation, mind, etc. Of course we choose Appaloosas with sport horse type bodies and movement. Our first Trakehner x Appaloosa foal in 2007 was not born with a spotted pattern but we were impressed enough with her mind, spirit and athleticism that we repeated the cross knowing that we had a 50% chance of no pattern again. The 2007 filly is currently an awkward girl but still has a great mind and is becoming a beautiful snowflake roan. Her full sister, Tanzanite, was born a week ago and is a very nice filly topped off with a lovely blanket. I am expecting there to be quite a bit of interest in Tanzanite.

                            I'd say the market is definitely improving for colored sport horses. I don't know if it will be as great for the upper levels yet but I have been amazed at how much interest we have had in our colored horses versus our purebreds. I decided to keep our 2008 purebred leopard filly Waps A Daisy as a broodmare prospect for this very reason. When I decided not to sell her I had prospective buyers offering me in excess of her already healthy asking price. That is a strong statement in my mind.

                            We have a homebred Appaloosa X TB stallion (foaled 2004) named Hollywood Hot Spot. His dam was a Holsteiner approved broodmare and has produced some very nice foals. This young stallion has the movement to excel in upper level dressage. We have not tested his interest or aptitude for jumping yet as we are taking it very slow with him. I have the confidence in him to put the money into quality training and seeing just how far we can take him. We are working on getting him started with a upper level eventer very soon but focusing first only on the dressage. I'd like to see more Appaloosas reaching the top levels and I believe in my heart that he could be one of them.

                            With the interest I have seen in Appaloosa sport horses I am seriously considering breeding my purebred Trakehner mare to our homozygous appaloosa stallion (sire of Hollywood Hot Spot) for a 2010 foal. That would be a beautiful cross and we would be guaranteed a spotted pattern at birth...a win-win. And since the stallion carries the cream gene we'd have the potential bonus of palomino or buckskin to top it off.
                            Altamont Sport Horses
                            Trakehners * Knabstruppers * Appaloosa Sport Horses
                            Home of stallions: Ambrosius af Asgard "Atlantis" & Hollywood Hot Spot
                            Birmingham, AL

                            Comment


                              #74
                              This I know. Did your comment have nothing to do with the second part of the statement?

                              Tobiano and sabino only affect protein (coat color) regulation and there are no problems/defects associated with them.
                              Disclaimer: My mom told me that people might look at my name and think I had an addiction other than horses. I don't; his name was Bravado.

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Over here, "color" is typically thought of as belong to the stock-type horses which just aren't suitable (in general!) for the sporthorse disciplines we're talking about here.
                                JB nailed the cause for most of the prejudice against colored horses. There are many people who don't know the difference between Paint and pinto, and assume everything colored is some sort of Paint/QH/stockhorse/undesirable. They don't realize you can now get warmbloods and well bred sporthorses with pretty colors and not even a drop of stockhorse blood.
                                No matter how much you beat a mule, it will never become a race horse.

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                                  #76
                                  Utah gives me goosebumps! he rocks

                                  Originally posted by Cartier View Post
                                  Utah Van Erpekom has done rather well as a Grand Prix Show Jumper with John Whittaker. I believe Utah is indisputably the most successful Pinto Stallion in sport...world wide... ever. I can't think of any Pinto stallion anywhere in the world that even comes close to what Utah has accomplished in sport. Here is a link to Utah's website and a few YouTube videos of him.

                                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9Exe...eature=related

                                  http://www.utah-van-erpekom.co.uk/news.htm

                                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9qzF...eature=related

                                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK7BZi5i-88

                                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj3C2...eature=related


                                  and, just have to add this link to John and the great show jumper Milton (with Tina Turner)
                                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pxwYCURa3U
                                  When this thread popped up, the first thing I thought of is Utah. How can one argue with that talent? The boy's got HOPS! I don't think John would care if he was purple!
                                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                  Equine & Pet Portrait Artist
                                  www.elainehickman.com
                                  **Morgans Do It All**

                                  Comment


                                    #77
                                    Originally posted by BravAddict View Post
                                    I should have clarified. I'm unclear on how that relates to what camohn said:
                                    "With different coat patterns they have different sources. Tobiano and sabino only affect protein (coat color) regulation and there are no problems/defects associated with them. ."

                                    With frame overo you have the possibility of lethal white. With splash you have the possibility of deafness. Tobiano and sabino have no known physical defects associated with them. I believe that is what you were asking but I may be mistaken.
                                    www.SilverSpringFarm.net
                                    Breeder of rare, high quality Silver Dapple Paints and Quarter Horses.

                                    Comment


                                      #78
                                      Down with Pinto Prejudice!

                                      I just proposed breeding our TB mare to a colourful sport pony... Family member: "there's no market for that. how many paints did you see in the ring at Devon this year?"

                                      this is what might be keeping the "spots and stripes" out of the ring (for hunters and hunter breeding). We are a small family farm and each foal is a big investment (money, time, and a breeding season for the 2 broodmares we have). Especially in these economic times, people might not be willing to take the risks of breeding if there's already a given prejudice floating around at the Rated & big local shows.

                                      YET I am not in the market for a horse but my jaw drops every time I see a paint in the ring or for sale online. AND every little girl wants a flashy pony!

                                      Q: So many hunter horse ads stress "chrome" and a lot of people breed for white markings (stockings and big blazes)... but not for even a little more white? And, does the "hunter prejudice" against colour have to do with the original use of hunters as in, the horse best matched to the traditional hunt (most true to type?)?

                                      Vixen Run Farm: Breeding and training ponies for the hunter ring!
                                      Breeder of the 2008 PAHBF's Best PA Bred Pony!

                                      Comment


                                        #79
                                        Hm, no. I'm aware of that, though.

                                        This is my question:

                                        Camohn said, rightly, that different coat patterns have different sources. They are on different genes, of course, but I think she meant that with tobiano and sabino, the DNA "copyediting software" of the body can pare out some of the KIT sequences that were inverted (as in tobiano), or missing an exon (as in sabino1). This means that even in the homozygous state, there is still a way to make enough proper KIT protein for the animal to survive. By contrast, the mutation on the EDNRB gene is a complete loss-of-function, without any way to "rescue" the directions for making the EDNRB protein. In the heterozygous state, all the "bum" copies of EDNRB are just thrown out and the good copies are used where the protein is critical. This gives us the frame pattern, with a normal bowel. The protein is required to innervate the colon. If there is no normal copy of EDNRB, there is also no way for the "copyediting software" to repair it. This, presumably, is what makes frame/LWO and potentially DW "lethal." I'm just thanking our collective lucky stars that if DW is lethal, it's lethal before we have some newborn, downy-white darling asleep in the straw.
                                        Essentially, I believe camohn was commenting on the fact that the NATURE of the mutation plays a role in whether it is deleterious or not.

                                        My confusion is that belambi responded to this saying "Which is why there is no visual similarity between the "design" of the patterns on clones..". Again, the substance is true; clones do not have the exact same markings. If anyone (and this I very much doubt) read what I wrote on the other thread, I talked about stochastic events and their role in white markings. To sum it up very briefly, a zygote goes from 1 cell to billions during development, which is MANY rounds of division and MANY little "events" that go one way or another, randomly. These events affect the visual appearance of white markings, and in a process of THAT many steps, it's simply impossible to exactly replicate the same exact process. If you flip a coin 100 times and record each H/T result, and then repeat it, do you think the pattern of heads-tails-tails-tails-heads-etc. would be exactly the same? Certainly not. So that is why clones do not have the exact same outline of their markings.
                                        I am unclear how her statement depends on camohn's comments.."Which is why". Is my question clear now?
                                        Disclaimer: My mom told me that people might look at my name and think I had an addiction other than horses. I don't; his name was Bravado.

                                        Comment


                                          #80
                                          Originally posted by woweezowee View Post
                                          I just proposed breeding our TB mare to a colourful sport pony... Family member: "there's no market for that. how many paints did you see in the ring at Devon this year?"
                                          Omega produced a very fancy, minimally marked Tobiano mare named All Dressed UP who placed 2nd at Devon (and Upperville). Claim to Fame won Best Colt at Devon in 2000.

                                          Are they common? No. Why? For the same reason these 2 (3?) current threads have been going on - they are a minority to begin with, therefore in any given sporthorse venue they are much less likely to even be there, much less win.

                                          If everyone keeps the attitude "well you don't see them at Devon" then they will never get there


                                          Q: So many hunter horse ads stress "chrome" and a lot of people breed for white markings (stockings and big blazes)... but not for even a little more white? And, does the "hunter prejudice" against colour have to do with the original use of hunters as in, the horse best matched to the traditional hunt (most true to type?)?

                                          A: it goes back to what we talked about earlier - in the English world, the prejudice was, for a long time, that "spots = stock horse therefore not suitable to hunters/dressage/jumpers." Then Art Deco and a few others came along, and there has been a growing fascination with the colors and spots
                                          ______________________________
                                          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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