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"Coloured" 3/4-7/8th TB or WB but none/few at the top?

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    #21
    Originally posted by Nes View Post
    I don`t think we can really include buckskins in this discussion as that is a *natural* equine colour.
    If it's not a bay dun, it's not a natural color at all It may be "natural" now, but anything outside "bay dun" is a mutation. Buckskin is no more natural or unnatural than palomino, or than gray, or than tobiano or Frame or Champagne or Silver or or or - all are mutations along the way

    ETA - just saw that you really meant dun
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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      #22
      another very nice coloured stallion

      http://www.universumsknockout.com/nockout_en.html
      Draumr Hesta Farm
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        #23
        How about some of the Pintos that Carol Koslowski has shown or Ringmoylan that Jane Jennings (?) is showing now or Presto (registered ApHA) that Allison Springer rode through advanced. My guy is somewhere between 1/8 and 1/4 appy and has both spots and a huge amount of talent. If anyone wants to take a colored horse up through the levels (currently training level eventing, almost ready for preliminary and jumping 3'6" SJ courses easily), let me know - I'm busy with my "boring" bay
        OTTBs rule, but spots are good too!

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          #24
          Unfortunately Yeager is limited by reason 'F'. We bought him right when we bought our first farm, and almost every penny (and second of time) has gone into developing that since. He is one of the most athletic horses I've had the opportunity to ride in 26 years though (kudos to Gwen's program for that), and I am super pleased with how his foals have been turning out so far.

          I hope our life will slow down a bit and finances will allow me to do him justice and campaign him in the future, but w/ the economy looking as it is, who knows what will be possible.

          There are definitely more quality 'sporthorses of color' out there now than there used to be, I bet you'll start seeing more make it to the top in the future.
          Blacktree Farm
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            #25
            I can attest for WarmbloodColor, since I went and saw him in person, that horse has some serious hops.
            Pacific Coast Eventing
            Standing Yeager GF

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              #26
              ! WAVES HAND !

              Put me into Category "F" as well ... as much as I would have loved to have had Faux Finish shown up to 3'6" in the hunters and in the jumper ring as well, there was only so much $$$ to go around and I simply couldnt do it

              Breeding for a specific color is a relatively new thing. There were plenty of stigmas in the past that prevented many horses of "unusual coat" from being bred
              Oh yeah ...

              I remember the Milkie story where they had to jump through hoops to get him registered. Jerry Tyler spent a fortune on Puchilingui getting his colour / registration papers sorted out with the Jockey Club. Years ago when I was showing in the jumper ring, a lady that was friends with the Samuels that owned Sam Son Farm here in Ontario rode this gorgeous big bay gelding in the hunter ring with a lot of white on his face and legs and a huge belly spot. The JC wouldnt issue papers on him because of all of that white and by the time they finally did, he was 4 and too old to take to the track (he hadnt even started let alone broke his maiden yet) so they sold him to this lady - unregistered - even though he was bred up the ying yang and probably WOULD have made a fabulous and profitable race horse. SO even the large stables had the colour bias going against them. This would have been in the late 70's this happened ...

              Many of the palomino's werent even registered, and God only knows what they did with all white sabino's! Probably took them out back and fed them to the hounds but they wouldnt have spent a penny getting them registered either. They were probably considered an abomination ...

              Think of the harlequin Great Danes. Drowned at birth or given away in secret without papers so NO ONE would know it came from YOUR breeding program. Now - they are coveted and sought after and worth terrific money!

              My how things have changed in every area ...
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                #27
                Originally posted by TrueColours View Post
                Think of the harlequin Great Danes. Drowned at birth or given away in secret without papers so NO ONE would know it came from YOUR breeding program. Now - they are coveted and sought after and worth terrific money!
                Makes me wonder how many QHs have actually been born looking like this...

                http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/reminic+in+spots

                I love harlequin Great Danes. I never knew they were undesirable at one point!
                www.SilverSpringFarm.net
                Breeder of rare, high quality Silver Dapple Paints and Quarter Horses.

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                  Original Poster

                  #28
                  Originally posted by TrueColours View Post
                  ! WAVES HAND !

                  Put me into Category "F" as well ... as much as I would have loved to have had Faux Finish shown up to 3'6" in the hunters and in the jumper ring as well, there was only so much $$$ to go around and I simply couldnt do it



                  Oh yeah ...

                  I remember the Milkie story where they had to jump through hoops to get him registered. Jerry Tyler spent a fortune on Puchilingui getting his colour / registration papers sorted out with the Jockey Club. Years ago when I was showing in the jumper ring, a lady that was friends with the Samuels that owned Sam Son Farm here in Ontario rode this gorgeous big bay gelding in the hunter ring with a lot of white on his face and legs and a huge belly spot. The JC wouldnt issue papers on him because of all of that white and by the time they finally did, he was 4 and too old to take to the track (he hadnt even started let alone broke his maiden yet) so they sold him to this lady - unregistered - even though he was bred up the ying yang and probably WOULD have made a fabulous and profitable race horse. SO even the large stables had the colour bias going against them. This would have been in the late 70's this happened ...

                  Many of the palomino's werent even registered, and God only knows what they did with all white sabino's! Probably took them out back and fed them to the hounds but they wouldnt have spent a penny getting them registered either. They were probably considered an abomination ...

                  Think of the harlequin Great Danes. Drowned at birth or given away in secret without papers so NO ONE would know it came from YOUR breeding program. Now - they are coveted and sought after and worth terrific money!

                  My how things have changed in every area ...
                  I got called away soon after posting!!! Still, what a fascinating thread. TrueColors, I'd heard of some of those difficulties, but not the extent of them. But what happened with the Danes?

                  Say, has anyone thought to write a book about this stuff?

                  (Oh, and as I said on the other thread, I was impressed by Dun To A T when I saw him at an ICP clinic a year or so ago, under Darren. Powerful beastie...)
                  Sportponies Unlimited
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                    #29
                    Originally posted by TrueColours View Post
                    I remember the Think of the harlequin Great Danes. Drowned at birth or given away in secret without papers so NO ONE would know it came from YOUR breeding program. Now - they are coveted and sought after and worth terrific money!

                    My how things have changed in every area ...


                    Originally posted by SilverSpringFarm View Post

                    I love harlequin Great Danes. I never knew they were undesirable at one point!
                    True Colors is mistaken. The Harlequin color pattern in Great Danes has been one of the recognized five colors in the breed for over 150 years. The first Great Dane to come to the USA came in 1857. He as a Harlequin named Prince, owned by Mr. Francis Butler. Prince had been shown in London, his owner was received by Queen Victoria, and the Illustrated News carried a drawing of Prince. True Colors may be thinking of Albinos (a disqualified color associated with deafness) or Merles (a disqualification), neither is sought after.

                    Also, to get a Harlequin you have to breed to a Harlequin… they are not a surprise in the litter, you have to intentionally breed for the color. They have always been highly sought after, and expensive, in part because the correct distribution of the spots, with the desired clean white neck is random, so getting the correct conformation with the correct distribution of spots is very difficult to get. The puppy with the best conformation in the litter might not have the best color. The Boston (or Mantle) color pattern can appear in a Harlequin litter. This pattern has always been valued too. Around the world Bostons were shown and used in breeding programs. In the USA, before AKC accepted the color, Mantles could not be shown, but they were still valued by Harlequin breeders because they produced the desired clean white neck. Merles (which appear in Harlequin litters) were sometimes euthanized at birth because the color was not allowed, and Albinos (again appearing from time to time in Harlequin litters), were euthanized because the color is thought to be linked to deafness.

                    But there has always been a strong market for Harlequins. They are (and have always been) the most expensive of the Great Dane colors (because a good, correctly marked one is so rare). And they only appear when one parent is a Harlequin.
                    Last edited by Cartier; Jun. 5, 2009, 08:54 PM.
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                      #30
                      Now let's see. It seems to me there was this lovely pinto mare who was quite an impressive eventer, oh around 1980. Now what was her name again?
                      If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

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                        #31
                        Glad you said it!

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                          #32
                          We definitely fall into category F as well...although even with the limited showing that we get to do we still took Palladio out last year and won the International Hunter Derby in WA and finished 11th out of 35ish horses with a brand new catch rider on him at another one in Canada....not bad for spending most of his time in the breeding shed and playing around at home.

                          We have easy minded foals so lots of them go to ammy that don't wind up taking them as far as they could but they are happy, safe, athletic, performance horses that are grossly underutilizing their talents. I figure better that then super crazy horses that no one can ride! But yes, that means a bunch of our spotted kids wind up being people's FUN horses and not in homes with folks that push them to the max of their abilities.

                          I can also absolutely say that there are some colored stallions that would NEVER be left stallions if they were plain bay or chestnut. We are talking grossly incorrect legs and foals that show the same problems or horses that are incorrect, weak movers or very poor jumpers...if that was a bay horse no one would ever use it...but add in color and voila...even unapproved, people will breed to them and the cycle of weak colored horses continues.

                          Palladio's breeder takes elite mares and crosses them on top, well known, proven sires. She was also the breeder of Semper who is Sempatico's sire. That woman is not skimping on quality in her program and nice horses come from it...some with color, some without but all with top bloodlines. I think it is a wonderful model to follow.

                          Hopefully as more and more colored horses are out there the best will get picked for breeding not because of their color but because of the athletic attributes that they have to offer the sporthorse population in general. As long as color is that last thing that people are looking for then the colored horses will probably be seen more and more often in the upper levels. We have kept a filly here as one of the highest scoring Palladio foals ever rated. She is lovely...she happens to be HZ for pinto...I'd have kept her even if she was hetero for pinto or solid as she is just wonderful and I can't wait to breed her....and hopefully she will produce things as nice as herself and her sire and yes...they'll have some fun toby markings!

                          I will also agree that there is still some color prejudice out there that some people just don't look at a colored horse and think "upper levels". We've made a good dent in changing peoples minds about that in the PNW, lol...but until more are out there I think there is the assumption that some quality was skipped to get the color...hopefully that will change as more and more really good ones come along.

                          On a side note there was an appy up in the PNW for a long time that did well in the hunters...can't remember what it's name was.
                          Andrea Clibborn-Anderson
                          www.crestlinefarm.com
                          Home of Pinto Dutch Warmblood Palladio

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                            #33
                            the Pinto stallion Utah Van Erpekom

                            Utah Van Erpekom has done rather well as a Grand Prix Show Jumper with John Whittaker. I believe Utah is indisputably the most successful Pinto Stallion in sport...world wide... ever. I can't think of any Pinto stallion anywhere in the world that even comes close to what Utah has accomplished in sport. Here is a link to Utah’s website and a few YouTube videos of him.

                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9Exe...eature=related

                            http://www.utah-van-erpekom.co.uk/news.htm

                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9qzF...eature=related

                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK7BZi5i-88

                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj3C2...eature=related


                            and, just have to add this link to John and the great show jumper Milton (with Tina Turner)
                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pxwYCURa3U
                            Last edited by Cartier; Jun. 5, 2009, 09:43 PM.
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                              #34
                              There have been pinto horses doing well as hunters for years. Silverwood's pinto stallions have produced some of these horses.
                              Claim to Fame won at Devon and more recently Crestline's Palladio has been a star.
                              A few years back there was a very good spotted equitation horse.

                              Appy's have been successful for years. Many from the 'wap' lines. They have won as Hunters, Jumpers and Equitation horses.

                              Many. many years ago the AHSA national Junior Hunter Champion was a Palomino. However, at the time there was a bit of a negative attitude towards them. So that horse was registered as a chestnut. But we all knew what color it really was. LOL.
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                                #35
                                cartier - on the harlequin Danes - really??? I was always under the impression they were the black sheep of the Dane kingdom and they got stuck in bags and drowned out back in the pond...

                                See - the wonderful knowledgeable people at COTH come to the rescue again and set us straight!

                                Thanks cartier!
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                                True Colours Farm on Facebook

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                                  #36
                                  Originally posted by TrueColours View Post
                                  cartier - on the harlequin Danes - really??? I was always under the impression they were the black sheep of the Dane kingdom and they got stuck in bags and drowned out back in the pond...

                                  See - the wonderful knowledgeable people at COTH come to the rescue again and set us straight!

                                  Thanks cartier!
                                  You're welcome Donna. Actually the Harlequin color pattern is unique on canines. It is not, as people mistakenly think, the same as the Dalmatian color pattern (which is basically a white dog with black spots). You could think of a Harlequin as a black dog wearing a torn white overcoat. If Harlequins ceased to exist, the color pattern would not exist anywhere.

                                  As for Albinos and Merles, they simply randomly appear in Harlequin litters, there is really nothing a Harlequin breeder can do to avoid producing them. They are not desired, but they are not the result of unscrupulous breeding. They are part of the gamble a Harlequin breeder takes, so I am not clear where you got the idea that breeders would be euthanizing a Harlequin (or any of the colors that appear in Harlequin litters ) out of shame.

                                  The only thing I can think of that would be a source of shame would be if a Harlequin breeder produced a Fawnaquin.. or a Brindlequin, which would be the result of breeding a Harlequin to a Fawn or Brindle. Breeders would sometimes do this because the quality of conformation was traditionally in the Fawns and Brindles. The breeder was hoping to get the quality conformation from the Fawn or Brindle, with the coat color pattern of the Harlequin. I have seen a few of these Fawnaquins and Brindlequis over the years. They are lovely, but it is considered a “mixed color breeding “ and was severely frowned upon by the Great Dane Club of America. It was a violation the GDCA's Code of Ethics, and may even have been reason to get your butt kicked out of the club… so that might be something a breeder would want to hide. But any breeder who kills another wise healthy puppy for something as trivial as coat color is just plain frickin wrong in my book.
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                                    #37
                                    We can't forget Broadcast News who with Mark Todd won the FEI World Eventing Title in 1997. Broadcast News was an appaloosa gelding from New Zealand. There have been a lot of other upper level appaloosa eventers. The problem is if they don't have spots they aren't shown as appaloosas so people don't realize it. I think Broadcast News was generally listed in programs as a tbx even though he was actually a registered appaloosa...

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                                      #38
                                      'We also breed for quality first and color second........we're quite proud of our pinto Oldenburg Stallion, Claim to Fame. Yes, he was/is a hunter......BUT he was of such quality that he beat classes of ALL solid colored horses both "on the line" and under saddle. I was a bit hampered by F. ($$) but he won a lot on the east coast..........then many told me I should ride him myself (5'2 55+ amateur lady) instead of the pros........he went as well, if not better for me (everyone commented how cute it was that he took care of me!!)....
                                      He hurt a foot, then I broke my wrist (in a vehicle, not on a horse..insult to injury, haha) .....so we're not showing now.

                                      Wait until you see Colaire........a 17 hand black pinto by Voltaire..........We have high hopes for this guy. He will probably end up a hunter rather than event horse, because he's a hack winner type with great knees..........You can't fault this breeding....! Plus, the $$ market was (is?) higher for hunters than event horses, so when a breeder has a nice one, that dictates where we have to go........

                                      I'll include photos of both. The trick is to breed for quality first.....and the color is just the icing on the cake. Yes, in the beginning, we color (or colour) breeders were a bit hampered by the small choices in pinto warmbloods.......but many have spread the genes to bring in color and the best horses possible!

                                      As a fellow COTHER always says........" be spotted, ride a pinto", haha!
                                      Attached Files
                                      www.flyingcolorsfarm.comHome of pinto stallion Claim to Fame and his homozygous son, Counterclaim. Friend us on Facebook!https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Fl...04678589573428

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                                        #39
                                        Originally posted by Paula View Post
                                        We can't forget Broadcast News who with Mark Todd won the FEI World Eventing Title in 1997. Broadcast News was an appaloosa gelding from New Zealand.
                                        That is very interesting… we have videos of Broadcast News with Mark. I sort of recall him doing his dressage test at Badminton in the pouring, drenching, bone-soaking rain… it was amazing the Mark didn't slide right out of the saddle, it was so wet. What a good boy Broadcast News was!!! I never realized he was an Appaloosa. Interesting.
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                                          #40
                                          Mostly Broadcast News was TB, with a dash of Appy thrown in. (7/8s TB)

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