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"Coloured" 3/4-7/8th TB or WB but none/few at the top?

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  • "Coloured" 3/4-7/8th TB or WB but none/few at the top?

    Just wondering here. Over the years, there have been some very, very nicely bred "coloured" horses (I'm using the British spelling out of respect for their very respectful "coloured" showing divisions!). But with only a very few exceptions--and those almost exclusively in hunters or dressage and almost exclusively WBs, it seems to me--no Appaloosa, Pinto, Paint or Palomino crosses have reached a kind of "famous" level in eventing or jumpers, and very few in dressage or hunters.

    Is there a particular reason, do you think? Any of the following?

    A. With even just a smidgen of colored blood, the result lacks sufficient talent.
    B. Not enough of them are being bred, so the odds are against one having enough talent to get to the top.
    C. The WAY they are produced (what is crossed to get them) precludes producing top-level talent.
    D. Riders capable of or seriously looking to get to the top won't give them a second glance, so they never get the opportunity to prove their talent.
    E. No one (or just very few) buy them or breed them as potential top-level talent, so they become self-fulfilling proficies.
    F. Those who like them can't afford to (or just don't care to) take them as far as they might go (in those particular sports, that is).
    G. Something else.

    Again, just curious as I wait for the rain to end so I can pick up a load of hay.
    Sportponies Unlimited
    Athletic Thoroughbred crosses for the highly motivated, smaller rider.

  • #2
    I just think we are rounding the corner from where we bred those horses for colour, and in order to get the colours we wanted we sacrificed the quality a little. However, now that we have lots of beautiful, loud colours in genes that are very stable, we are headed back to building for quality in those horses. So in the next 50 years I think you will see coloured horses at the tops of their sports.

    You have to remember we didn't have leopard spotted or cremellos or even loudly coloured paints 100 years ago the way we do now.

    The one place I don't think coloured horses will be able to gain a foot-hold is in thoroughbred racing. I think in that case we are way too far of creating thoroughbred that are both colourful & can run. Maybe in another 100 years.

    JMHO.
    "For some people it's not enough to just be a horse's bum, you have to be sea biscuit's bum" -anon.
    Nes' Farm Blog ~ DesigNes.ca
    Need You Now Equine

    Comment


    • #3
      She isn't at the top yet (she is only 5) and my guess is her ammie owner won't event her past training, but the dun (Connemara color, truly speaking she is buckskin) I bred that is now 5 has qualified for NAEC this fall. As a 4 year old, she won her 4 year old USEA test at a show in TX and was told by the judges the filly would be capable of competing successfully at the national level. She is 1/2 TB, 1/2 Connemara.

      Her dam is Pesy Side, sire is *Gunsmoke.

      The first photo is as a 4 year old, the 2nd is as a young 5 year old.

      Color was an after-thought, though. She wasn't bred for color, just a bonus that *Gunsmoke is dun.
      Attached Files
      Beth Davidson
      Black Dog Farm Connemaras & Sport Horses
      http://blackdogconnemara.com
      visit my blog: http://ponyeventer.blogspot.com

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by pwynnnorman View Post
        Just wondering here. Over the years, there have been some very, very nicely bred "coloured" horses (I'm using the British spelling out of respect for their very respectful "coloured" showing divisions!). But with only a very few exceptions--and those almost exclusively in hunters or dressage and almost exclusively WBs, it seems to me--no Appaloosa, Pinto, Paint or Palomino crosses have reached a kind of "famous" level in eventing or jumpers, and very few in dressage or hunters.
        Dun to A T, buckskin, ridden by Darren Chiaccha, competed at Rolex - that's a pretty "famous" level of Eventing

        I have forgotten the name of the rider and horse, but I think there is a pretty famous Appy Hunter whose rider rode him bridleless in a Hunter class for sales purposes. Someone reading this will know who it is

        Is there a particular reason, do you think? Any of the following?

        A. With even just a smidgen of colored blood, the result lacks sufficient talent.
        Nothing to do with it. What CAN happen though, and does far too often, is that someone breeds primarily for color, with conformation, temperament, and talent a distant 2nd. There are probably more ill-advised colored horses out there than carefully planned ones for that reason. That by default lowers the choices. But there are far, far far more "plain" horses not suited for the show ring, or who belong to people who don't want to show, than those who are suited and are in the right show hands. It's like a population of blue people and green people: If you have 85% of the population as blue, and 15% green, then if you are looking at Job A, you can't expect there to be more than 15% of the employees being green because they aren't any more than 15% of the population. That doesn't make them inferior, it's just a matter of statistics.

        B. Not enough of them are being bred, so the odds are against one having enough talent to get to the top.
        See above - I think there are a lot of "colored" horses out there, but having enough of them in the right breeds is where you're lacking. LOTS of pinto stock horses exist, but because of their breeding they are not suitable, largely, for the disciplines you listed.

        C. The WAY they are produced (what is crossed to get them) precludes producing top-level talent.
        See above - it's largely about numbers. When talking about dilutes and appy patterns and pinto patterns, there just aren't that many lines in the sporthorse world to begin with. Combine that with the fact that most of the horses produced end up in amateur hands, they just don't make it to the top levels. It's hard enough to produce a top level horse, either by well-thought out breeding or just grit and guts training, that when you do produce one, it's much more likely to be one of the "normal" colors because bay, chestnut, and gray just overpower everything else in terms of numbers.

        D. Riders capable of or seriously looking to get to the top won't give them a second glance, so they never get the opportunity to prove their talent.
        No doubt - there IS prejudice right off the bat for some people who automatically associate "color" with "those cow horses" and think they can't jump their way out of a paper bag.

        E. No one (or just very few) buy them or breed them as potential top-level talent, so they become self-fulfilling proficies.
        Indeed, that has to be part of the issue as well. It's a matter mostly of the numbers of normal colors vs the numbers of "colored" colors/patterns. Then to get to the point where you have a breeding-worthy colored horse and the numbers reduce even more. THEN to get those breeding-worthy colored horses into the hands of people who want to breed them, *especially* stallions, and you've dramatically reduced the pool farther. You're much more likely to get a top level colored horse from a nice colored stallion, than from a nice colored mare, simply due to numbers. Add to THAT issue the fact that while there are few enough single dilutes, or heterozygous tobianos, or heterozygous appys, there are even *fewer* homozgyous horses of breeding worthiness. So, with the heterozygous horses, 1/2 their offspring are going to be normal colors/patterns. Only the homozygous horses produced the colors/patterns 100% of the time.

        F. Those who like them can't afford to (or just don't care to) take them as far as they might go (in those particular sports, that is).
        That is also an issue as well. I love what Guaranteed Gold produces, but his offspring are priced way out of my range even just as foals. But they ALL sell, so their price is worth it, obviously, for enough folks. But even if you breed for one, you're again looking at numbers - take 100 horses, 2 of which are colored (color, pattern, whatever), and the chance of those 2 having the talent and the rider to make it to the top is slim, just as slim as randomly picking out 2 normal horses from that 100.

        G. Something else.
        No doubt there are some folks who love the color, might have even bred one themselves, but have met, due to location, judges with a huge color prejudice, so get frustrated and just give up.
        ______________________________
        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

        Comment


        • #5
          The one place I don't think coloured horses will be able to gain a foot-hold is in thoroughbred racing. I think in that case we are way too far of creating thoroughbred that are both colourful & can run. Maybe in another 100 years.
          pshaw ... ... just wait ...

          There is one palomino colt by Guaranteed Gold that is a week or so away from his first race named Beyond Blonde and another GG grand daughter - again palomino - just posted the fastest work of the day out of 30 some odd horses at the track she trains at. No - I dont see any of them winning the Triple Crown anytime soon but I think several of them will be quite capable of being competitive race horses that can pay their way and earn some money for their connections

          There is another one out west that will hopefully make his debut this year - the James Blonde colt and 2 or 3 more GG offspring that will also be running in PA state.

          The intention also is to ship the palomino & white Remember My Name colt to Scotland where he will undergo race training for his connections and he will then race over in the UK which would be fabulous to see!

          So - give it some time. You should start seeing some neat colours popping up at the tracks across North America shortly and hopefully as well as "looking neat" they can also do some serious running as well ...

          I love what Guaranteed Gold produces,
          Thank you. Very much ...
          www.TrueColoursFarm.com
          www.truecoloursproducts.com

          True Colours Farm on Facebook

          Comment


          • #6
            But with only a very few exceptions--and those almost exclusively in hunters or dressage and almost exclusively WBs, it seems to me--no Appaloosa, Pinto, Paint or Palomino crosses
            This confused me a little (I guess because pinto and the dilutes (palomino etc) can be warmbloods too) so my response may not even be relevent because I'm not sure if you're interested in thoughts about breeds like Appy and Paint, or colored sport horses in general, but anyhow... (Feel free to skip over my post if I've missed the plot entirely, lol!)

            B. Not enough of them are being bred, so the odds are against one having enough talent to get to the top.
            C. The WAY they are produced (what is crossed to get them) precludes producing top-level talent.
            I think it's a combination of both. I don't know the numbers, but I'd guess maybe less than 1% of registered warmbloods/sporthorses are "coloured", so it's logical we'd see less of them at the top levels of competition. When you combine that with the fact that too often people sacrifice quality and conformation or take other shortcuts to get color, then you have even more factors which are going to preclude high level performance success.

            So if you figure only a tiny percentage of warmbloods/sporthorses are "coloured", and only a percentage of those are quality bred, it's not surprising we don't see more of them at the higher levels.

            I also think because of the rarity of quality colored warmbloods/sporthorses, the best may be used for breeding, more than showing, because for many people the logistics are too complicated to try to do both -- breeding AND training/campaigning/showing.

            The quality of colored breeding programs is improving in leaps and bounds, in my opinion, and we have quality colored warmblood stallion options like Sempatico, Blue Eyed Dream, Limet Hurry, Palladio, and more (Nico, for fans of Friesian Sporthorses!), which would have been unheard of 10 or 15 years ago. As more quality colored horses are produced, the odds of one "making it" will increase proportionally...
            River Oaks Farm - home of the Elite Book Friesian Sporthorse Grand Prix dressage stallion Lexington - sire of four consecutive FSA National Inspection Champions. Endorsing the FSA.

            Comment


            • #7
              Gwen sold a upperlevel event prospect to a BN eventer in Aus or New Z.

              I hope he makes it big

              This stallion is doing well
              http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com/Mirabeau1.htm

              along with this one but he is to be gelded (or is already) to focus on showing
              http://www.fieldstonefarm.biz/breeding_services.htm
              Draumr Hesta Farm
              "Wenn Du denkst es geht nicht mehr, kommt von irgendwo ein kleines Licht daher"
              Member of the COTH Ignorant Disrepectful F-bombs!*- 2Dogs Farm

              Comment


              • #8
                Galypso by Galoubet and out of a pinto British sporthorse mare was a black/white pinto stallion owned and shown by the Cudmores at the grand prix level.

                Comment


                • #9
                  There are very few HORSES that make it to the top. How many Olympic horses are there? That we remember? Not many. So, you then drop down to subsets - how many APPY sport horses are there? Even fewer. Pinto? A few more than Appy, but not so many. Dilutes, pretty rare. So you have very limited numbers - and as already pointed out, until recently, anything outside of gray, bay, chestnut, and black was, ahem... Not right!

                  HOWEVER, having said all that. First of all, we've all heard of Art Deco? He's probably one of the first to break the color barrier. And - in reality, there have been quite a few minimally marked sabinos - people just didn't notice the high, splashy whites, or the belly spot Dutch WBs and Trakehners have a lot of these sabino lines!

                  I think we'll start to see more and more of the colored athletes, there are some nice young prospects out there. Now, will we see a dilute pintaloosa? Probably not anytime soon
                  www.MysticOakRanch.com Friesian/Warmblood Crosses, the Ultimate Sporthorse
                  Director, WTF Registry

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by FriesianX View Post
                    Now, will we see a dilute pintaloosa? Probably not anytime soon


                    But we MAY see a dilute appy Dilute pinto as well.
                    ______________________________
                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JB View Post
                      Dun to A T, buckskin, ridden by Darren Chiaccha, competed at Rolex - that's a pretty "famous" level of Eventing
                      He was actually ridden by Jonathan Holling at Rolex 08, who was filling in for Darren after he was injured. He only completed the dressage portion and scratched after that.

                      I think he might still be riding him...not sure. He seems to be a very nice horse.
                      =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
                      ~Jilltx~

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        A combo of

                        B:not enough of them bred/odds are against them by sheer volume

                        C: the WAY they are produced. Often but not always color was being bred for a variety of reasons..sometimes it was just for the sake of color and the horse had poor confo or no talent at all. In many cases with the non WB pintos the base is in stock horse Paints.......APHAs are 90% bred for Western events, not jumping or dressage. Unfortunately that leaves the other 10% tarred with the same brush, even if they ARE good at jumpers or dressage....and are not judged on their own merits.

                        and E is pretty self explanatory.

                        I got into Paints (APHA) first as a Paint was the first horse I ever learned to ride on. The first horse I owned was a rescued Paint. First equine sports were trail riding, then polo and field hunting. When I got preggo I go into dressage as a safer sport for the new mom. It also helps ya don't have to have a string like for polo!! I still loved my Paints but most were not suited to Dressage so I bought a Paint/TB cross mare with her newborn filly at side by a WB stallion. That pair was the foundation of my current breeding program. Then I added an overo TB stallion since he was the whole package of talent and temperment. Sadly I lost him at only 5 years old and have hopes that is now 2 YO son will be able to fill his big shoes.
                        Last edited by camohn; Jun. 5, 2009, 05:22 PM.
                        Providence Farm
                        http://providencefarmpintos.blogspot.com/

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by FriesianX View Post
                          There are very few HORSES that make it to the top. How many Olympic horses are there? That we remember? Not many. So, you then drop down to subsets - how many APPY sport horses are there? Even fewer. Pinto? A few more than Appy, but not so many. Dilutes, pretty rare. So you have very limited numbers - and as already pointed out, until recently, anything outside of gray, bay, chestnut, and black was, ahem... Not right!
                          Agree entirely.

                          Breeding for a specific color is a relatively new thing. There were plenty of stigmas in the past that prevented many horses of "unusual coat" from being bred. Registry biases "Too much white = no papers!." Old wives tales ala "Pink hooves are weak." Can you imagine what people thought about cremellos & perlinos 200 years ago? I wouldn't be surprised if they were culled instantly.

                          Originally posted by Nes View Post
                          I just think we are rounding the corner from where we bred those horses for colour, and in order to get the colours we wanted we sacrificed the quality a little. However, now that we have lots of beautiful, loud colours in genes that are very stable, we are headed back to building for quality in those horses. So in the next 50 years I think you will see coloured horses at the tops of their sports.
                          Another excellent point. In order to breed for a color you have to start with that color. In order to keep the color going it is VERY VERY likely that some compromises had to be made at some point. The likelihood that the first mutation of the cream gene occurred in a perfect equine specimen is very slim!
                          www.SilverSpringFarm.net
                          Breeder of rare, high quality Silver Dapple Paints and Quarter Horses.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I don`t think we can really include buckskins in this discussion as that is a *natural* equine colour.

                            Actually there are quite a few buckskin Andaulisan & Lustiano competing at very high levels in Europe (and throughout history too).
                            "For some people it's not enough to just be a horse's bum, you have to be sea biscuit's bum" -anon.
                            Nes' Farm Blog ~ DesigNes.ca
                            Need You Now Equine

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Breeder/owner of palomino hunter

                              I have a palomino 7 year old by Canadian Kid. He has a beautiful canter, huge step, cute jump and is super honest. He has been regional Champion in the IHF programs and was the year end champion A/A hunter last year in the Sacramento area - which will certainly not be defined by anyone in the hunter world as "making it to the top".

                              Unfortunately for him, I fall into category F; it costs so much to show now that he will not "make it to the top" of the hunter world if that is defined as the USEF National Champion Regular Working Hunter because I can't spend the $$$$s to get him to a top trainer and 25 shows a year. Unless he is purchased by someone who can campaign him, his true potential will not be known.

                              For me, he might someday be able to be in the top 10 of the PCHA 1st Year or A/O Hunters, or maybe the top 3 in the NorCal H/J year end awards and I will certainly enjoy getting him that far.

                              How many other breeders/owners/riders are in category F and will never really know whether the potential of their horses has been fulfilled?
                              Barbara
                              http://www.westfieldfarm.com

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I think that, for the most part, is that there hasn't been the right "stuff" yet, in the colored sporthorses for eventing. But they are getting there. I think the biggest thing is that the colored warmbloods tended to be heavier and of a less modern-type than what many competitors are looking for in their mount. They wanted more blood.

                                However, no one would want to just cross hot blood (presumably TB) with old-style warmbloods. WAY too much chance for the genes to not line up right and, even if they did, the resultant offspring would be too heavy.

                                Gwen seems to have it right, so far, from what I've seen of her offspring now. Mascarpone was still too heavy, IMO, but she crossed him with mares with generally hotter blood, lighten frames and longer legs leading to a good bunch of nice, athletic Mascarpone stallion sons (Yeager, Mirabeau, Medallion). These stallions seem to be more appropriate to breed to even more hot blooded mares with proven athletic ability to produce colored UL horses.

                                My buckskin Yeager foal is 58% TB, 19% Trak, and 23% other warmblood, which should prove to be an at least decent mix for the ULs. He will be shown in the FEH series, then starting the YEH series and BN/N when he is 4. We'll see from there.
                                Pacific Coast Eventing
                                Standing Yeager GF

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Nes View Post
                                  I don`t think we can really include buckskins in this discussion as that is a *natural* equine colour.
                                  What do you mean by "natural" color?
                                  Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                                  http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by RiddleMeThis View Post
                                    What do you mean by "natural" color?
                                    Nes, are you referring to dun, which is often erroneously called buckskin?
                                    Pacific Coast Eventing
                                    Standing Yeager GF

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      I would say something here about starting with colored clunkers and adding TB blood to get English discipline sport horses but I won't.

                                      BTW, there are several maximum white sabino TB who have raced and won. It's just the Palominos who have poor race records, but that might be because so many of them got diverted to color breeding. After all, they've only been noticed as palominos for the past fifty or so years--since Milkie.
                                      "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                      Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Yes, I was having an idiot moment, my appologies
                                        "For some people it's not enough to just be a horse's bum, you have to be sea biscuit's bum" -anon.
                                        Nes' Farm Blog ~ DesigNes.ca
                                        Need You Now Equine

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