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Little White Lies, Sales Selectors, and "No She Is Not Grey!!!" Pics added on page 3

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  • Little White Lies, Sales Selectors, and "No She Is Not Grey!!!" Pics added on page 3

    The other morning we were expecting a visit from a big Sale company to see one of our yearlings. It was absolutely tanking down with rain, wind was blowing, and it was downright cold. So Mr. Equilibrium suggests we call sale guy and get switched to the next day. This is all very early so can't call and come up with a lame excuse just yet. So we put everyone out thus blocking entry to back fields where said yearling is and think all will be well.

    When coming up with my lame excuse, I casually mention Mr. Equilibrium is in England - his is going, but not until Monday - and that it might be better if we wait for him to show filly. Yes, I know this is lame and really stupid, but it happens. He explains he has to come today due to other cancellations. See not the only one who doesn't want to do this in crap weather.

    Great now no Mr. Equilibrium. It's bad enough I had to tell a stupid white lie, even worse to say " oh hey look who's back". Thing is, this particular yearling she just doesn't care for me much, likes Mr. E much better. So me and Mr. Sale Selector battle our way out through the elements to see Marge. Amazingly she actually let me catch her without the usual fanfare that goes with it. She even gave me a little snuggle probably because she was fet up with the weather and wanted in. He really liked her and funny thing is, she looked so much bigger in the field all puffed up staying warm. She was also on her toes and presented very well. If she was in, I probably would have had to drag her up out of the bed and then she would have been sleepy and groggy!

    On the way back we have to go through the foals. First we get to Penelope, my High Chaparral filly. Couldn't say enough nice things about her and also couldn't believe she was so friendly. But then he says, " oh she's going to be grey". The day before this little visit my husband had said the very same thing. And I kept saying, no she can't it's genetically impossible. We know she has the rabicano gene but I admit it is looking like she is turning grey on her body, where the coat has shed out on her head, she is still very bay. Mr. sale selector says, no that filly will be grey. I'm saying no it's genetically impossible. I try to explain the rabicano gene and that's going about as well as explaining quantum physics. Then I got well she's probably roan. That led to a whole nother conversation!

    This whole thing played out in my mind all day until I finally called the lab to find out if my filly is by who she is supposed to be and she is. To be honest, those guys down in Tipperary are not going to mess up on stallions that's just plain and simple, but still I called.

    So genetic people, I can't possibly have a grey when there are not greys in the immediate family - right? Or can it be a freak thing? Basically what I think we have here is the rabicno gene really going to work, mom and dad both have it. All her little whorls have got white hair in them now, she has a belly spot that sure wasn't there at birth, and the white hair mixed through what is coming through of her coat is wild. I did try and get pictures, but her shedding isn't going very quickly and they aren't showing what we are all seeing. Another week and I should have good pics!

    It's a slow Sunday!

    Terri
    Last edited by Equilibrium; May. 18, 2009, 02:31 PM.
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

  • #2
    Technically, you COULD get a gray from two non gray horses IF you happened to be lucky and get a mutation.

    However it is not very likely. What is more likely is that it is just a combination of rabicano.

    Another possibility, if she was not a TB (and Im assuming she is based on the stallion) is silver, which looks gray, but is not.
    http://www.thebrandfarm.ca/Newdusty2.jpg

    I cant wait to see pictures of this horse.
    Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
    http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by RiddleMeThis View Post
      Technically, you COULD get a gray from two non gray horses IF you happened to be lucky and get a mutation.
      That is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE and it CANNOT and has NOT ever happened. At present time, there is no such thing as a grey mutation gene in equines. If it was possible, she'd have the World's First grey out of non-grey parents. Grey is a dominant gene. Meaning, at least ONE parent must be grey themselves in order to pass the grey gene on to their foal. It CANNOT hide for several generations and suddenly pop up...like chestnut. The roan gene, single dilute gene (cream gene) and the dun gene are the same...one parent must have it (show it in their coat) in order to pass it on.

      If the parentage DNA has come back on your filly as correct, then you are dealing with a rabicano or sabino expression. I hear stories every once in awhile of someone saying, "Well, my friend got a grey colt out of two non-grey parents. It does happen". No it doesn't. These have always been stories and rumors and nothing more. If it is true, then that dam was sent semen by the wrong stallion! Or, in another true case, the mare was a cremello and has had multiple grey foals by non-grey sires. Answer: that mare is a grey cremello...but the double dilute coats are one of the few coats that can "hide" the grey coloring as their look so washed out.

      A grey equine by two non-grey equine parents does not exist anywhere on this planet!
      www.DaventryEquestrian.com
      Home of Oldenburg, Westphalian & RPSI approved pony stallion Goldhills Brandysnap
      Also home to Daventry Equine Appraisals & Equine Expert Witness www.EquineAppraisers.com

      Comment


      • #4
        RMT is right -- a mutation can happen, although it's very unlikely.

        How do you think we got all of these color variations in the first place?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Daventry View Post
          That is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE and it CANNOT and has NOT ever happened. At present time, there is no such thing as a grey mutation gene in equines.
          Then how the heck did gray ever start in horses?

          It was a mutation - gray foal out of non-gray parents.

          Technically, from what I have read, everything non-bay is a mutation.

          RMT was right.

          A grey equine by two non-grey equine parents does not exist anywhere on this planet!
          Not anymore, but the first one certainly did.
          ______________________________
          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by grayarabpony View Post
            RMT is right -- a mutation can happen, although it's very unlikely.
            I shudder when I start reading stuff like this on a public Bulletin Board, as many people come on here and read the false information and then think it's possible for them to have a grey foal out of two non-grey parents. No point in saying it's "very unlikely" when it has never happened and doesn't exist. If there had ever been one truly reported case, then fine, say it can happen, and it's very unlikely. BUT, when this doesn't even exist in equines, everything you're posting ends up being false information.

            I'll say it again. Grey is a dominant gene. At least one parent must be grey in order for the foal to be grey. There is no such thing as a recessive grey gene or a grey mutation gene in equines. It has never happened before and does not exist in equines. Period!
            www.DaventryEquestrian.com
            Home of Oldenburg, Westphalian & RPSI approved pony stallion Goldhills Brandysnap
            Also home to Daventry Equine Appraisals & Equine Expert Witness www.EquineAppraisers.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Daventry, the point is, gray IS a mutation. It is a mutation that is now engrained in the equine color palette. It COULD happen again, but as mentioned very, very unlikely.

              It DID happen at one point, that's WHY we have gray horses now.

              It's also why we have cream dilutions and champagnes and HYPP and HERDA - allllll are mutations.
              ______________________________
              The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Daventry View Post
                I shudder when I start reading stuff like this on a public Bulletin Board, as many people come on here and read the false information and then think it's possible for them to have a grey foal out of two non-grey parents. No point in saying it's "very unlikely" when it has never happened and doesn't exist. If there had ever been one truly reported case, then fine, say it can happen, and it's very unlikely. BUT, when this doesn't even exist in equines, everything you're posting ends up being false information.

                I'll say it again. Grey is a dominant gene. At least one parent must be grey in order for the foal to be grey. There is no such thing as a recessive grey gene or a grey mutation gene in equines. It has never happened before and does not exist in equines. Period!
                Daventry, clearly you don't have a good grasp of genetics. *That* sort of thing makes me shudder when I read a public bulletin board.

                Ditto what JB and RMT said. Yes, the foal is probably a sabino -- but also, there is a very slight chance there was a mutation and the foal turned out gray.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Daventry View Post
                  If it was possible, she'd have the World's First grey out of non-grey parents.
                  Actually I can put my money where my mouth is on this one. This horse has been parentage verified TWICE as being from these two parents.
                  Sire
                  http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...ar-germany.jpg

                  Dam
                  http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...o/IMG_1317.jpg


                  Foal/Adult
                  http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com...2/dscn2811.jpg

                  And no, hes not mine.

                  It CANNOT hide for several generations and suddenly pop up...like chestnut. The roan gene, single dilute gene (cream gene) and the dun gene are the same...one parent must have it (show it in their coat) in order to pass it on.
                  Im not talking about it "hiding" Im talking about neither parent even HAVING the gene to hide and having a COMPLTELY new mutation of gray, you know, the exact same way gray happened in the first place.

                  A grey equine by two non-grey equine parents does not exist anywhere on this planet!
                  Look up

                  I shudder when I start reading stuff like this on a public Bulletin Board,
                  Ditto
                  No point in saying it's "very unlikely" when it has never happened and doesn't exist.
                  It has! How do you think gray (and every other color besides bay dun) happened?
                  BUT, when this doesn't even exist in equines, everything you're posting ends up being false information.
                  Umm...no...its not. It CAN happen and HAS happened and is how we have gotten every single other color other than bay dun.

                  How many researchers emails would you like to have so you can email them and ask?

                  a grey mutation gene in equines.
                  So there are no gray horses? The gray gene IS a mutation.

                  Here Ill copy a quote straight from the genetic paper on gray.
                  Here we show that the Gray phenotype is caused by a 4.6-kb duplication in intron 6 of STX17 (syntaxin-17) that constitutes a cis-acting regulatory mutation.
                  Please, stop posting mis information on an internet bulletin board when you are WRONG.
                  Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                  http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    I am pretty sure she isn't grey. I'm going to get the video camera out tomorrow because I think it will take clearer images. It's the rabicano gene taking over which should make a pretty nice color when she is an adult. I just didn't expect to see so much "roaning" so to speak so early on.

                    My color experience is limited to what I try and research. Usually, it's out of my head before I can put it to any good use as I don't have fancy colored horses.

                    But then the converstation turned to roaning and if I was correct I said that roans don't fade over time such as grey horses do. So I launched into a "TB registries and their roan color crap". The way we register horses with regards to color is a bit outdated. While sending in our blood samples for DNA testing they should test for the color as well. You have no idea how many times you go to a sale and see chestnut or bay down as a color only to find a grey horse looking at you. Then you have to go through a whole rigamarole of retesting and re marking. Thing is we can't test for color here. I would have to send a sample all the way to UC Davis.

                    Terri
                    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Equilibrium View Post
                      Thing is we can't test for color here. I would have to send a sample all the way to UC Davis.
                      Terri
                      I was just shown within the last few days a testing place in the UK...give me a few moments and Ill try and find it for you.

                      ETA: Here it is for you
                      http://www.horsedna.co.uk/
                      Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                      http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I am not saying this is the case, but. Sometimes dominate genes are not expressed, as in brown eye color in people. If the gene itself is flawed or something is wrong in the expression, a dominate gene can go unexpressed in that individual but be passed on. A successful mutation, while obviously possible, is highly unlikely. It is more likely there is a suppression of the gene so that it is not being expressed.

                        Daventry,
                        Your close to the University of Alberta, you might want have the same discussion with someone in the genetics facility. I am not disagreeing that most of the time you are correct in saying you don't get a grey from 2 non-greys. But using the term impossible is not correct. Unless you do not hold evolution to be a valid, then that is a whole other topic, not suitable for this board.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by RiddleMeThis View Post
                          Actually I can put my money where my mouth is on this one. This horse has been parentage verified TWICE as being from these two parents.
                          Sire
                          http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...ar-germany.jpg

                          Dam
                          http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...o/IMG_1317.jpg


                          Foal/Adult
                          http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com...2/dscn2811.jpg

                          And no, hes not mine.
                          Funny how the only evidence you have are simple uploaded photos posted on a free online photo album site. No explanation, no concrete evidence, no research papers or evidence to be found on any of the search engines or an announcement that the first grey foal out of two non-grey parents has happened in modern time.

                          UC Davis and Animal Genetics in the United States and the University of Queensland lab in Australia ALL report no known cases of a new grey mutation gene or a grey recessive gene existing. All three labs stand behind the statement that grey is a dominant gene, period. Meaning that a foal can only be born grey if one parent is also grey.

                          You can go on believing whatever you want. I would suggest you contact the owner who posted those three meaningless photos online and tell them to alert the press and make a big announcement about having the first grey foal out of non-grey parents! Oy vei!
                          www.DaventryEquestrian.com
                          Home of Oldenburg, Westphalian & RPSI approved pony stallion Goldhills Brandysnap
                          Also home to Daventry Equine Appraisals & Equine Expert Witness www.EquineAppraisers.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Daventry:



                            You need to get a grip as well as more knowledge. Your arguing is truly just silly.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Daventry View Post
                              No explanation, no concrete evidence, no research papers or evidence to be found on any of the search engines or an announcement that the first grey foal out of two non-grey parents has happened in modern time.
                              Im curious what more you want? You have an obviously gray horse DNA Parentage Verified horse out of two non grays...really, what more evidence do you NEED.

                              UC Davis and Animal Genetics in the United States and the University of Queensland lab in Australia ALL report no known cases of a new grey mutation gene or a grey recessive gene existing.
                              Just because there is no KNOWN case does not mean it does not exist, nor that it CANT happen like you are stating.
                              All three labs stand behind the statement that grey is a dominant gene, period.
                              Im not saying its NOT a dominant gene.
                              Meaning that a foal can only be born grey if one parent is also grey.
                              Except if it mutates again which CAN happen.

                              You can go on believing whatever you want.
                              Just as you can as well, but I, and researchers, are confident you are wrong in your statement that there is "no gray mutation."
                              I would suggest you contact the owner who posted those three meaningless photos online and tell them to alert the press and make a big announcement about having the first grey foal out of non-grey parents!
                              They actually have talked to one of the research universities.
                              Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                              http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by stoicfish View Post
                                I am not saying this is the case, but. Sometimes dominate genes are not expressed, as in brown eye color in people. If the gene itself is flawed or something is wrong in the expression, a dominate gene can go unexpressed in that individual but be passed on. A successful mutation, while obviously possible, is highly unlikely. It is more likely there is a suppression of the gene so that it is not being expressed.
                                This is the misinformation I was talking about when people go on a BB and read a bunch of hype. Sorry stoicfish, not meaning to pick on you. Just trying to prove my point. Dominant does not mean a gene HAS to be expressed. What dominant does mean though is that in order for that color to show up in an offspring, one parent must also have that color. So, even though grey in equines is considered a dominant gene, a foal only has a 50% chance of turning grey if only one parent is grey. But, if neither parent is grey, there is 0% chance of the foal being grey. Same with brown eyes in humans.

                                Originally posted by stoicfish View Post
                                Daventry,
                                Your close to the University of Alberta, you might want have the same discussion with someone in the genetics facility.
                                You're right, it is in my backyard....Majored in Animal Physiology and Behavior and have done a ton of Genetics courses and read through many equine research papers, etc. as well.

                                No point in posting any further on the subject as we're going to end up believing what we believe in.
                                www.DaventryEquestrian.com
                                Home of Oldenburg, Westphalian & RPSI approved pony stallion Goldhills Brandysnap
                                Also home to Daventry Equine Appraisals & Equine Expert Witness www.EquineAppraisers.com

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Daventry View Post
                                  But, if neither parent is grey, there is 0% chance of the foal being grey.
                                  Except with another mutation!
                                  Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                                  http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Daventry
                                    "What dominant does mean though is that in order for that color to show up in an offspring, one parent must also have that color. So, even though grey in equines is considered a dominant gene, a foal only has a 50% chance of turning grey if only one parent is grey. But, if neither parent is grey, there is 0% chance of the foal being grey. Same with brown eyes in humans."

                                    Cool, we are both alumni! I did a BSc with major in bio,chem minor.
                                    As I recall (being awhile), that the def. of dominate was closer to
                                    “In genetics, dominance describes the effects of the different versions of a particular gene on the phenotype of an organism. Many animals (including humans) and plants have two copies of each gene in their genome, one inherited from each parent. The different variants of a specific gene are known as alleles. If an organism inherits two alleles that are at odds with one another, and the phenotype of the organism is determined completely by one of the alleles, then that allele is said to be dominant. The other allele, which has no tangible effect on the organism's phenotype, is said to be recessive.”
                                    It was only in the time of Mendel, when chemistry was not yet used as an explanation, did they only refer to parental/offspring phenotypes as an explanation. Now dominance is defined by the relationship of the two copies of the alleles to each other, and the chemical mechanisms by which they are selected to be expressed.
                                    Even though I did third year genetics classes, biochem and developmental biology classes, I am in no position to speak to this subject as an authority. But I do have a rudimentary understanding of subject. Enough so that I find the topic interesting.( I am sorry to the OP that this got hijacked.) When I put forward the idea that a dominate gene can go unexpressed it was not out of complete ignorance of the topic but a suggestion that might explain the grey from two non-grey.
                                    I have written to a couple of the color testing facilities in hopes of getting an answer. I figured those of us who are genuinely interested in the topic might want what to see what the experts say. Will post if/when I hear back.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Daventry, can you please explain how gray made its way into the equine gene pool, since you're apparently so adamant it hasn't ever been and can never be a mutation? Do you disagree that bay dun was not the original, "normal" color for an equine?

                                      What about cream, or champagne, or silver, splash or tobiano or frame or HYPP or HERDA or SCIDS or GBA or anything else of your choosing?
                                      ______________________________
                                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Stoicfish, gray is dominant over everything else. Not all dominant genes are created equal, but gray is truly dominant. Either explanation -- gray from non-gray parents, or a non-gray with a G gene, would require a mutation. If there was a mutation in the G gene, so that it couldn't be expressed, the gray color probably wouldn't show up in subsequent generations either.

                                        ANYWAY, it would be interesting to see a pic of Equilibrium's horse, who is probably rabicano! (Sorry, I think I've said sabino a couple of times.) Terri is right, rabicanos can have a lot of white mixed in with the base color.

                                        Here's a link showing a couple of loud TB rabicanos: http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/ecg_basics4.html. Judging from the leg markings, the one on the right has sabino too.

                                        To see a really loud rabicano, check out the wikipedia site! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabicano
                                        Last edited by grayarabpony; May. 17, 2009, 03:55 PM. Reason: added link, corrected term

                                        Comment

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