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HELP-What color is this yearling pony?? UPDATE WITH DNA RESULTS

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  • #41
    Originally posted by LaurieB View Post
    I am truly not trying to be argumentative, just want to figure this out. The vast majority of my bay foals are not born with mousy/grayish--or what appear to me to be black--legs. They're born with light, wheat colored legs like this colt: http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...-4-21-09-a.jpg Which is why the other filly's legs look so dark to me.
    Yes, the tan is another color the black legs can be born. I've seen them both ways. I can't say for sure, but I think the darker/mousy color ends up being on a horse who ends up a dark shade of bay, and the tan color on the "normal" bays.

    Originally posted by RiddleMeThis View Post
    Shes not even 2 weeks old. Never seen a foal come out of a charcoal stage that fast.
    It still looks to me like a black foal who was born the "gray" of a foal-black coat. Of course, knowing who that is now, with the filly being likely smoky black, that explains the "oddness" to the color. It's still not the black coat of a black-turning-gray foal.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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    • #42
      Another vote for silver bay. If he is and if his conformation/athleticism are as good as they look in the photos then he would be a candidate to keep entire. Silver is extremely rare in Welsh ponies and he looks lovely.

      I agree with JB about foal legs tending to indicate whether a foal carries the grey gene or not. The only exceptions I've seen are foals with a cream gene. Some of those are born with jet black legs rather than the greyish/mousy colour you usually see and they do not go grey. It seems to be a function of the cream gene.

      To OP are you going to do the genetic colour testing on him? It would be interesting to find out what colour he really is.

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      • #43
        He is very cute!
        I offer no suggestions on the color other than to test him.
        I tested a colt last fall and it was really easy to do.
        I tested with 2 different labs--- UCLA Davis in CA
        and Animal Genetics in Florida. Animal Genetics offers a grey gene testing that UCLA Davis did not offer (at the time--I can not speak for now). Reports came email within a few weeks.

        I downloaded all the forms online and it was very easy. I think I even paid online & sent the hairs thru the mail.
        Windswept Stables-Specializing in Ponies
        Sales, Breaking,Training,Showing, Stud Service

        Home of 2008 Sire of Year Reserve Champion
        Pony Hunter Breeding - Empires Power

        www.EmpiresPower.com

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        • #44
          Originally posted by stolensilver View Post
          I agree with JB about foal legs tending to indicate whether a foal carries the grey gene or not. The only exceptions I've seen are foals with a cream gene. Some of those are born with jet black legs rather than the greyish/mousy colour you usually see and they do not go grey. It seems to be a function of the cream gene.
          Yep, that's why I said the dilute genes can really play havoc with figuring this out, hence the little discussion we just had about the foal RMT posted who is likely smoky black

          To OP are you going to do the genetic colour testing on him? It would be interesting to find out what colour he really is.
          Seriously, that's a must!
          ______________________________
          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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          • #45
            Originally posted by Summerwood View Post
            Interesting....I have never heard of that breed!! Their color is beautiful.
            They are very striking aren't they? I would really like to find out what one of them would test out as color-wise.

            Everything I've read about them says they come in two colors: bay w/flaxen and chestnut w/flaxen.

            That just seems really strange to me. Plenty of "bays" w/flaxen manes but no black or true bay horses in the entire breed?

            Seems to me like they probably exhibit some strange form of flaxen chestnut that just so happens to have darker colored legs. (Unless every single horse in the breed is homozygous for both silver and agouti...)
            www.SilverSpringFarm.net
            Breeder of rare, high quality Silver Dapple Paints and Quarter Horses.

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            • #46
              Originally posted by Windswept Stable View Post
              He is very cute!
              I offer no suggestions on the color other than to test him.
              I tested a colt last fall and it was really easy to do.
              I tested with 2 different labs--- UCLA Davis in CA
              and Animal Genetics in Florida. Animal Genetics offers a grey gene testing that UCLA Davis did not offer (at the time--I can not speak for now). Reports came email within a few weeks.

              I downloaded all the forms online and it was very easy. I think I even paid online & sent the hairs thru the mail.
              I also color tested a colt last year that was a bizarre color. He came back as chestnut. I did it through UC Davis, and I had the results in a matter of days via e-mail. It was very cool and I was impressed. I'd definitely do it again if I was wondering about a color!

              It looks like they do offer testing for grey, in addition to the others. http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/horse.php
              Family Partners Welsh Ponies - Home of Section B Welsh stallion *Wedderlie Mardi Gras LOM/AOE http://www.welshponies.com
              Click here to buy: A Guide To In Hand Showing of Your Welsh Pony

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              • #47
                Originally posted by JB View Post
                Yes, the tan is another color the black legs can be born. I've seen them both ways. I can't say for sure, but I think the darker/mousy color ends up being on a horse who ends up a dark shade of bay, and the tan color on the "normal" bays.


                I know NOTHING about color. Heck, I barely know anyhting about breeding but I do have lots of experience with bay babies!

                All the dark bays I've known have a tanish/mousy greyish color on their legs - usually more greyish (it's a pretty mix of color). You can easily see the black just begging to come out under it!

                The lighter bays have all been very tan with sort of a reddish tinge on the legs - the black definitely not as apparent. Sometimes the hair almost looks blondish.

                The more medium bays have an array of colors - dark, light, blonde, reddish - it's fun! But, it's clear the baby is a bay by the mane, tail, muzzle, ears, and eyes.
                Lord Stanely, Lord Stanley - come back to Pittsburgh!!!
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                • Original Poster

                  #48
                  Originally posted by stolensilver View Post
                  Another vote for silver bay. If he is and if his conformation/athleticism are as good as they look in the photos then he would be a candidate to keep entire. Silver is extremely rare in Welsh ponies and he looks lovely.

                  I agree with JB about foal legs tending to indicate whether a foal carries the grey gene or not. The only exceptions I've seen are foals with a cream gene. Some of those are born with jet black legs rather than the greyish/mousy colour you usually see and they do not go grey. It seems to be a function of the cream gene.

                  To OP are you going to do the genetic colour testing on him? It would be interesting to find out what colour he really is.
                  Thank you for the compliment.
                  I will definately have him tested to see. He is very, very correct and is a really nice mover with a canter that looks like you could sip wine on and not spill a drop! He is one of those foals that was born with that "look at me" factor. His 1/2 sister is one of the top smalls in the country right now with Bill Schaub. I had planned on gelding him because I thought he would make some child very happy but maybe I will wait to see what his color comes back as. I will be sure to let everyone know when I find out!
                  Last edited by Summerwood; Apr. 25, 2009, 02:02 PM. Reason: Add
                  http://summerwoodwelsh.com
                  Summerwood Farm Welsh Ponies~
                  http://www.facebook.com/Summerwoodfarmwelshponies

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by Summerwood View Post
                    Thank you for the compliment.
                    I will definately have him tested to see. He is very, very correct and is a really nice mover with a canter that looks like you could sip wine on and not spill a drop! He is one of those foals that was born with that "look at me" factor. His 1/2 sister is one of the top smalls in the country right now with Bill Schaub. I had planned on gelding him because I thought he would make some child very happy but maybe I will wait to see what his color comes back as. I will be sure to let everyone know when I find out!
                    He is cute !!! I am going to vote with the silver bay crowd.

                    I am breeding a welsh cross pony mare confirmed with the silver gene to a welsh pony stallion that also has been confirmed with the silver gene this year. So I have been looking at a lot of the color mixes and he looks like what I have been seeing called a silver bay. One place I read a statement that quite a few silver bays are confused with a flaxen liver chestnut and as they age it becomes apparent that they are a "horse of a different color".

                    Please test him. I used Animal Genetics to test the mare and they had the results back in less than a week.
                    Richard, Approved Black KWPN Stallion
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                    Oh Kaptain Underpants SFS, Approved BRp pony stallion
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                    • #50
                      Farnley Gorse was bay. All her children I knew were by Vida, so gray....
                      Stonewall Ponies
                      Ixonia, WI
                      www.stonewallponies.com

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                      • Original Poster

                        #51
                        Stoney, you have a mare out of the same dam, Hillcrest's Blue Angel. Your mare looks really nice in the video!

                        You wouldn't happen to have a photo of Gorse would you?
                        http://summerwoodwelsh.com
                        Summerwood Farm Welsh Ponies~
                        http://www.facebook.com/Summerwoodfarmwelshponies

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                        • #52
                          I will have to look for a Gorse picture....I think I have one from her post broodmare days, I think your Angel was one of her last foals...Alex Jayne then bought her for Maggie to show in the medium ponies, and I remember a jog picture from when I competed against her on my medium, many,many years ago! We love our Blue Angel daughter (My Blue Heaven) we call her Angel as well, she is darling and lives up to the name....I plan to keep her as a broodmare, but will lease her out to show for a few more years. Your colt is stunning, what ever color he is
                          Stonewall Ponies
                          Ixonia, WI
                          www.stonewallponies.com

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                          • Original Poster

                            #53
                            Thanks Stoney. I would love to have the photo of Gorse for my records. Angel is a sweet, patient old mare and she seems to pass along that quality in her foals. I love the jump on your mare!!

                            I am going to collect some hair and send it to Animal Genetics tomorrow so I will let you all know what happens. Thank you everyone for your educated guesses!
                            http://summerwoodwelsh.com
                            Summerwood Farm Welsh Ponies~
                            http://www.facebook.com/Summerwoodfarmwelshponies

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                            • Original Poster

                              #54
                              RESULTS ARE BACK

                              Well, sent the hair to animal genetics and this is how it came back. So what are my conclusions now? Do I need to have him tested for gray?

                              Summerwood's Rhythm N' Blues Welsh Pony RED FACTOR-ee AGOUTI-aa SILVER GENE-nn



                              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              Result Guide:

                              Red Factor
                              ee Only the red factor detected. The horse tested homozygous for red pigment. The basic color is chestnut or sorrel, but depending on genes at other color loci, the horse could be red dun, palomino, cremello, gray or white.

                              Agouti
                              aa Only recessive allele detected. Black pigment distributed uniformly. The basic color of the horse will be black in the absence of other modifying genes.

                              Silver Dilution

                              nn Horse tested negative for Silver Dilution.
                              http://summerwoodwelsh.com
                              Summerwood Farm Welsh Ponies~
                              http://www.facebook.com/Summerwoodfarmwelshponies

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                              • Original Poster

                                #55
                                I just got off the phone with Animal Genetics, they said that based on their findings and my description (he has a slightly darker stripe down his back)they think that he is most likely a red dun but he could also be grey. She said sometimes they don't show it until ages 4-7??? That would be really crazy to have a chestnut all of a sudden start turning gray at that age. They do not currently test for the dun factor, but UC Davis does. It is $50 though, so I think I will just take their word for it. I may test for the grey gene, though, as they can do it with the same sample. I am a little disappointed he isn't silver bay...I like that color!! But he is pretty cool the way he is now and it will be fun to see what his coat looks like every year!
                                http://summerwoodwelsh.com
                                Summerwood Farm Welsh Ponies~
                                http://www.facebook.com/Summerwoodfarmwelshponies

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                                • #56
                                  UC Davis is $25 for gray test while Animal Genetics was $45 last I looked.
                                  http://TouchstoneAcres.com
                                  Touchstone Acres Lipizzans, Standing N. Samira VI (Gray), N. XXIX-18(Black), more in 2014

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                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by Summerwood View Post
                                    they think that he is most likely a red dun but he could also be grey.
                                    IMO there is absolutey no way in HELL that this horse is dun. I will eat my computer if this horse is dun. On the other hand GRAY can and will put fake dun factor on a horse. At Churchill Downs today over HALF of the grays we saw had at least a dorsal stripe.
                                    Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                                    http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

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                                    • Original Poster

                                      #58
                                      Originally posted by RiddleMeThis View Post
                                      IMO there is absolutey no way in HELL that this horse is dun. I will eat my computer if this horse is dun. On the other hand GRAY can and will put fake dun factor on a horse. At Churchill Downs today over HALF of the grays we saw had at least a dorsal stripe.
                                      OK, you convinced me to test him for gray (that was easy ). I think AG is only $25 also, perhaps they recently changed it. I will call them on Monday and tell them to conduct the test. Don't tell my husband I'm spending more money on the little bugger .
                                      http://summerwoodwelsh.com
                                      Summerwood Farm Welsh Ponies~
                                      http://www.facebook.com/Summerwoodfarmwelshponies

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                                      • #59
                                        Bet he's not grey.

                                        But now you'll be able to say I'm right.
                                        Family Partners Welsh Ponies - Home of Section B Welsh stallion *Wedderlie Mardi Gras LOM/AOE http://www.welshponies.com
                                        Click here to buy: A Guide To In Hand Showing of Your Welsh Pony

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                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by Summerwood View Post
                                          OK, you convinced me to test him for gray (that was easy ). I think AG is only $25 also, perhaps they recently changed it. I will call them on Monday and tell them to conduct the test. Don't tell my husband I'm spending more money on the little bugger .
                                          Don't you just love puzzles This color testing that they can do now is fun. I like following the color threads that have conclusions so keep testing. There -- I am enabling !! (I won't breathe a word to your husband).
                                          Richard, Approved Black KWPN Stallion
                                          Website
                                          and Facebook page
                                          Oh Kaptain Underpants SFS, Approved BRp pony stallion
                                          Website and Facebook page

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