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What is your opinion in this situation ...

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  • What is your opinion in this situation ...

    What is right and what is wrong???

    [This message was edited by Spot on Dec. 03, 2001 at 06:25 PM.]
  • Original Poster

    What is right and what is wrong???

    [This message was edited by Spot on Dec. 03, 2001 at 06:25 PM.]


    • #3
      that's a really tough situation.. I think she should be given a chance at her new home, but if she turns into a problem where she'd be a danger to herself or other hroses, maybe the best thing for her would be to euthanize her. Maybe having her at a less hyped.. more "tranquil" scene would be better for her [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] good luck either way. Doesn't this kind of have to do with the "tiznow' subject? Like I said there.. horses that are going to have a bad life after their raced shouldnt be bred, no matter how fast they may be or how much money they may earn



      • #4
        Tough decision Spot.
        If it were me, I would not risk the chance. The price tag may be free but how much damage could she cause?? If she were to go to your farm can you afford to take the risk of getting hurt?? Or someone from your barn( family,workers, etc.)
        Plus you mentioned that she is maiden, so you dont know what her reaction would be a baby. You also said the she passes on the trait 99.9% of the time, babies that kick arent fun, especially if they are big babies.
        There is a possibility that she could do a 360, and become when nice when she foals but are the odds in your favor??
        Good luck!


        • #5
          If this mare kicks so badly, couldn't she seriously injure your stallions when you try to breed her?

          Also, I can't imagine many people would want the babies if they end up with her tempermant.

          Valerie's home page


          • #6
            In the Gate just posted both points I was about to bring up. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img]

            If it were up to me, I wouldn't want to take the chance.


            • #7
              Too much could go wrong with this one, Spot. There are plenty of good mares out there that don't have these destructive tendencies. Let her go, hard as it may be.

              Think of this too, if she produces, and her babies have her kicking tendencies, how many people are going to believe, maybe wonder is a better word, if your stallion is somehow to blame.
              If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.
              Desmond Tutu


              • #8
                OK, let me go out on a limb here, but I have seen many behaviors that totally change with a different environment and handling. If you wanted to take a chance, just delay making a decision on breeding until you have her for a few months and can evaluate her behavior under different circumstances.


                • #9
                  Is this really a horse U want to duplicate??? I wouldn't take her,l because if she is like that, there's a good chance her baby would be just the same, and who needs to deal with that nomatter how talented they are! I saw an excellent article in Practical Horseman afew years ago about the important of the mares in breeding, and after looking around at some very large breeding farms & ranches, I'm inclined to agree.
                  Also, I was at a discussion given by Bob Henselwood, about breeding and the importance of the mare. He would tell U exactly the same, and he's a pretty smart guy who's produced many good horses over the years.
                  Good luck.


                  • #10
                    to pass on it too. I feel sorry for the mare, but it is our responsibility as individuals breeding foals to provide them with the best dam possible.

                    If I took a chance on her, I might consider a 24/7 turnout situation for at least a year. Then, I'd definitely breed her AI, and I'd also have her foal out in a paddock/pasture, etc.

                    However, the kicking tendency would always be "your fault" if the foal inherited it. Are you willing to accept that responsibility?

                    When blood is the beverage of choice, the sharpest fangs feed first.


                    • #11
                      are temperament, temperament, and then again there's temperament. Keep in mind:

                      A sound but non-competitive, even somewhat non-athletic animal that has a fabulous disposition will ALWAYS find a nice home somewhere - even if it's as someone's best friend & trail mount.

                      However, a brilliantly competitive & athletic animal that's a total lunatic or aggressive in any way will have a hard time finding that same home no matter how talented he may be.

                      The mare & her background IS 50% of the breeding equation, & you have no way of knowing beforehand how the genetic wind will blow.


                      • #12
                        I agree with Fairview, the way they are coming off the track is not the true animal most of the time. Mine have changed so much in the first 6 months off the track you would not know they are the same horses. Sometimes, it takes a year. I can give you the name and number of someone I trust completely to give you advice. She has did this for over 30 years and has delt with every kind of behavior difficulty. She is the best qualified person I know to help you make this difficult evaluation. Putting down a five year old is a hard choice. Please email me if you are interested in contacting her.


                        • #13
                          I agree with pretty much everything that has been written & can see all sides.

                          However, I have a question: Is this a mare that kicks for a reason? Or is this mare one that simply kicks endlessly whether there is anything behind her or not? I have never seen a horse that kicks almost non-stop, but I have read about a few. If this is a mare that kicks for a reason--there is someone or something behind her that she doesn't like--then I might think she would change with the right environment. If this is a mare that kicks whether there is anything within range or not, I would think she has a screw loose & very possibly might pass it on. Of course, she might pass on shear meanness, too, but I consider you have a chance of heading off the behavioral problem in a foal if it is not rooted in some brain disorder.

                          And yes, you do have to think whether you would want the foal out there "representing" your breeding program.


                          • #14
                            I do not have anywhere near the experience in breeding as Spot or many others but from reading many threads and articles I have come to the conclusion that sporthorse breeders breed for temperament as much as conformation. I also think that this mare may change a lot if left in a field for a year but I also think that she will always go back to her old habits when under stress. The fact that Spot says from the outset that this line is known for kicking says it all. As a buyer I would not touch a horse that has a kicking problem - handling would be dangerous and showing impossible. This may be a horse that could be taken on by someone experienced in handling problem horses who wants a project on the understanding that she cannot be bred. Good luck with your decision Spot - it's a tough one.


                            • #15
                              I have been looking a long time for a big, true black TB mare whom is structurally sound (An affordable price is good too. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img])

                              That said, I personally would pass on this mare.

                              Temperment is extremely importent to me. It makes life with a horse much, much easier if that horse has a good mind. Do you really want to deal with worring about this mare injuring someone day after day?

                              Also, as other posters have said, a horse with a bad temperment is most likely NOT going to have a good life. They usually get passed from owner to owner (usually to worse and worse situations) until they are eventually sent to slaughter.

                              This mare has already demonstrated that her natural response to a stressful situation is to become violent. (I am assuming that your friend would never abuse a horse, or employ anyone who would do so.) She will almost definately TEACH her foal to react in this way to people. It might be different if embryo trasfer was an option, and the said foal was born to a quiet mare. Unfortuately, as a TB, the violent mare must bear the foal herself.

                              I would react differently to this situation if the mare had come from an abusive situation. Then I might consider taking her, turning her out, and giving her time.

                              Good luck.

                              God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses.
                              ~R. Graham
                              God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses.
                              ~R. Graham


                              • #16
                                I did not read the last post before posting my response. (Spot must have been posting at the same time. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img])

                                After reading about that line of horses, I would 100% pass on the mare. It sounds like they are genetically predisposed to a kicking problem. Even an embryo transplant foal has a possibility of displaying this trait.

                                Don't let Spot be blamed for the foals temperment.

                                God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses.
                                ~R. Graham
                                God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses.
                                ~R. Graham


                                • #17
                                  Free is always more expensive than not.


                                  • #18
                                    Did she do anything herself on the track? Is there enough black type on her page to make her offspring commercially viable?

                                    I wouldn't take her as a hunter breeding prospect, simply because sporthorse owners are (rightly so) MUCH less tolerant of a behavioural problem than racehorse people.

                                    Spot, if you have the time and the space, take her and she if she mellows. If not, pass on her.


                                    • #19
                                      i would never breed such a horse, and i would never trust such a horse to not harm people at the stable. she could easily kill someone, either a worker or some unsuspecting guest. you can never guarantee that everyone that crosses paths with the horse will be a knowledgeable or skilled person, and you can't take that risk.

                                      as breeding stock she got bone chip at a young age with light racing and is a menace. she is therefore in my mind not breeding stock. she has two big problems to pass along to her offspring, she's a nutcase and she's extremely unsound early on. both are fairly heritable.

                                      being a race horse is a very simple job. it is very clear what the horse is supposed to do, and basically i would not think that a horse that is in a lot of trouble at the track would be better off somewhere else where he'd get less work and more idle time and more food, and be handled less firmly and by less knowledgeable people. race track people if anything do usually know how to handle a rough horse. most of the rest of us would simply freeze in place if a horse came at us with both barrels, and in that sense she'd be going out of the frying pan and into the fire.

                                      she will probably not improve in another environment at all, unless she is being abused or drugged and that is causing her behavior. and it doesn't sound like that is the case, since you said the stallion passes the kicking on to 99 per cent of his offspring.

                                      we had a horse that kicked. not people (much) but walls. pretty constantly. and that horse was never sound. we put kicking chains on her and those made her sorer, but didn't stop her kicking. it's just something some horses do, but it is something that usually makes the horses unsound.

                                      and i can't say i've ever seen a horse that had a behavior problem as many-faceted as this or as severe as this ever got any better.

                                      someone always seems to decide it is someone else's fault and take these horses on. i've seen hopeful people get more than their hopes dashed with this sort of horse.

                                      even abuse cases can be very hard to turn around. i took a spoiled, neglected and very sad appealing creature in when i was a teenager, only 17 at the time so god forgive me, i know better now.

                                      i spent months gentling him, and got pretty badly hurt more than once in the process. got him so he was pretty good too. and then i had to sell him, and he was back to square one, and he hurt some people pretty bad. i never forgave myself. the horse should have been put down, and because of my ego i got someone else hurt. i learned my lesson then years ago, i'll never do that again.

                                      another lady a lot older and better dressage trainer than me did the same with another horse, she was convinced she'd be the one to turn that horse around after everyone else had failed.

                                      she failed too and she took a huge financial loss on the horse. i don't know where it went but i don't think it was put down.

                                      and then the horse of a friend that did someone 18,000 dollars worth of reconstructive surgery to the face of the NEXt person who decided they knew how to fix that horse. owner didn't have the guts to put the horse down. now someone is disfigured and in pain for the rest of their life, and there will be more surgeries, that won't be the last one.

                                      i've seen quite a few people who have TRIED to take some of these ''big handsome'' horses (they always seem to have some aspect of them that draws people in and makes the person believe THEY will be the one that will be smart enough and knowledgeable enough and compassionate enough to turn the horse around), and make them better, but to a large degree, ''how they are is how they are'', and that is just it.

                                      even if she improved some, which is really all that is reasonable to expect at her age (habits are now set), she would still be extremely dangerous. and still you have the problem of the bone chips developing so early on which she will doubtless pass on the maturation pattern/bone conformation or other issues that caused that as well.

                                      i would submit that the horse is not at all competitive, but is actually agressive and uncooperative to the extreme and a danger. i would strongly advise that the horse be put down as the people have indicated they wish to do.

                                      i guess my only question is how would you feel if some passing kid got kicked to death by this mare while she was yours? it's worth considering, and so would be the (legal) liability of taking her on should she harm someone. it has happened before.

                                      [This message was edited by slc on Nov. 26, 2001 at 04:22 PM.]

                                      [This message was edited by slc on Nov. 26, 2001 at 04:23 PM.]

                                      [This message was edited by slc on Nov. 26, 2001 at 04:26 PM.]


                                      • #20
                                        It sounds very tempting but is it really worth the trouble? Why would you want to breed a mare with an attitude...I don't think it would improve w/motherhood. My last almost free mare cost me two stallion contracts before I finally gave her back. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img]