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What is your opinion in this situation ...

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  • I am concerned about the personal attacks at Spot - I know her personally and like her very much. I disagree with her profoundly and absolutely on the issue of sending horses to slaughter. But that is not personal.
    I have been in a slaughter house - I used to be a televison writer and producer, and we had to do a story about them.......
    but I have a story.
    When I was a young girl, I had the best mare ever. She would go anywhere I pointed her - and I pointed her in stupid directions sometimes - down highways, into swamps, through a railway culvert (you know the big round cement thing)! and this mare, former top cutting horse, never batted an eyelash. Well, one day we were out on a hack near the new barn I had moved to. Suddenly she started snorting and blowing - getting increasingly agitated. I couldn't see, hear anything, and squeezed her forward. She started to lunge and leap and shake. The only thing I could see was a low, nondescipt building up ahead... "Highland Packers"... I turned her around - and she nearly ran back down the road. I never came that way again.
    Also, does no one else feel revulsion about the terms "piece of crap" and "junk" being used about horses in previous posts?? If a horse is crippled does that horse somehow "deserve" the further torture and punishment of being sent for slaughter? Of course horses have "dollar value" and some horses are "better than others" - but what about intrinsic value?
    Which horse is better - the vicious, sneaky international jumper stallion or the sweet natured, endlessly patient, but limited lesson horse that is now too old to crank out a living for someone else....?
    And another thing that concerns me is the use of the word "pet". I have no pets. an earlier post brought up the issue of "domestic slaves" - this was a phrase put forward in a book which became something of a bible in the animal rights movement. I understand it and agree philosophically - but disagree with it on a personal basis - it is after all me who cleans out the cat box and wipes up the puke on the rugs...
    and I have yet to convince the horses to load the hay into the barn....or to take the poop back out.
    But on the other hand, I find the use of the word "pet" derogatory. I have another friend (one of the cute Scottish Cattle judges) who also thinks it is ok to send horses to slaughter. We disagree on this violently - with him exclaiming, "they're no PETS". No they are not pets. There isn't a word that I know to describe for what horses are to me. Perhaps "wards"? I never use the word "own" in regard to them. I am their caretaker, and am responsible to them and for them. It's bloody tough. and I'm not "dewy eyed", nor do I "anthropomorphise'? them - that phrase too - reeks of incredible human arrogance. That we have feelings and emotions is true - but what makes us assume that these are necessarily just "human" emotions and feelings?. Can we use ourselves as the standard against which other animals are measured?? I heard a farmer on the radio a few weeks ago talking AGAINST the issue of improved treatment of food animals... he said, "well, there is no proof that they are sentient...."
    I have a buy back arrangement with every horse I sell privately. Horses I have sold through the TB yearling auctions, I have tried to keep track of...
    I'm not holding myself up as someone special or "holier than thou" or anything like that -
    all of us in our lives make personal choices about ethics,morals, whatever - (somethings are legislated) - but many are day to day decisions about who we are, who we want to be and how we want to live. It has to be personal for each of us. And no I don't eat meat, and Yes I do wear leather. And no I don't think that is hypocritical. Why for God's sake is the issue of animal cruelty or animal rights always presented in black and white terms, "your baby or your beagle".. why can we not constantly question, reevalute our attitudes and methods and take steps towards improving our treatment of the animals we use???
    Finally, to address another issue - while I have never seen Spot's stallion under saddle, so cannot speak to that -
    we collect our stallions at the same breeding farm - and whenever I have seen him, he has always been absolutely mannerly and calm. Waiting his turn to be bred, mannerly in the breeding shed, and then happily grazing side by side with my stallion while Spot and I chat.
    Sorry to go on so long - I had stuff to get off my chest! Rant over for now.

    A Fine Romance. April 1991 - June 2016. Loved forever.


    • He felt I was being an idealist UNTIL he went to the Owen Sound, Ontario facility and watched the process.
      Owen Sound has been closed for YEARS. HOWEVER,
      I have police friends that went up there years ago to see what happens and they said it was very humane and not at all what they expected.
      I think if there is any chance that a horse of this nature might hurt someone, or if there is any chance that if you gave it away, the next person might sell it to someone unsuspecting, that you did the right thing by euthanising. How you euthanise, at home or buy shipping it off for meat, is entirely your choice.


      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
        Rebelspi, as I explained in the email I sent to you, Louise deleted your post because it quoted and referred to Kurt's first post, which was deleted because it was too much of a personal attack against Spot. Louise also deleted one other person's post for that reason, I think. They were not deleted for their content, only because they no longer pertained to the discussion since the original post has been removed.

        And no, none of the moderators removed Spot's posts.

        If you post here, you have to be prepared to have people argue with you and criticize you. We try very hard to keep the discussions focused on issues, but that doesn't mean people can't offer their opinions about what you state in your posts.

        Kurt's post was over the line, and was deleted. Eglinton's was borderline, hence the warning.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

        I had one of my posts deleted because I was angry at the personal attack on Spot. I dont htink it was right... it is a discussion, not a flaming board.. like i've said before, spots decision is hers and hers alone, we have NO right to critizize her for it. I may not completely agree with it, but hey, she seems to have done well in this business so far, how bout the cirizim toward her stops, and the dicussion turns back to the Slaughter VS. Euthinization topic. I liked that



        • Kurt, a personal attack isn't any less personal because you don't use a name, not when it is perfectly obvious to whom you are referring. I am deleting your post for now, sending a copy to Erin, and let her make the final decision whether it should be reinstated or not.

          If you feel you have had a bad experience with someone, then deal with that person directly, not here. These boards are not to be used for unsupported personal attacks. If you can substantiate accusations with documentation such as objective, published reports and/or a final judgment in a lawsuit, then you can post about them. Otherwise, keep it private and keep it off here.
          "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry


          • This board is NOT to be used to attack other posters. Unless what you're saying has appeared IN PRINT or has been documented IN COURT, don't you dare post it here. We have no way of verifying if anything else is true.

            The motto of the Internet -- caveat emptor. These boards are here to help educate people about how to be good, responsible horse owners and how NOT to get roped into deals with irreputable people. If someone is naive enough to take everything they read on this board to be gospel, well, that's their problem. I'm not going to let people badmouth each other here, even if it is with the supposed intent of protecting others.

            Kurt, if you post about this subject again, I'm banning you from the board. This simply isn't the place for it.

            If this thread does not IMMEDIATELY turn to issues rather than individuals, it will be closed. I've given enough warnings.


            • I'm not insulting anyones intellegence, I hope. I'm sure if most of you would do anything, even unhorse related, over the internet, you would look long and hard into it before doing anything. But I've see it happen, especially with very convincing people.
              I know very well that the horse world is a small one. And I wouldn't say anything that wasn't true. I've only said what I know horse-wise.


              • I deleted Coco's response to Kurt's post because it was a clear misstatement of what Spot had previously posted. It was a personal attack just as Kurt's post was a personal attack.

                I sent a copy of it to Erin, and if Erin wants to re-post it, she has that option.
                "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry


                • People, this discussion is about euthanasia, slaughter, etc. -- if that's not what you're posting about, DON'T post.


                  • Sorry.


                    • Why is the slaughter of cattle, pigs, sheep, etc. more acceptable (in some people's opinions) than that of horses?


                      • well.. I personnally am not against SLAUGHTER of horses.. i personally wouldn't eat a equi-patty, but thats cause I love horses.. but I am opposed to the things they have to endure before their slaughter, as I am with chickens, pigs, cows, turkeys, etc. I eat meat... but basically very little. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img]



                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sister:
                          Why is the slaughter of cattle, pigs, sheep, etc. more acceptable (in some people's opinions) than that of horses?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                          Because (as opposed to cattle, pigs, sheep, etc) nearly all people on this board see horses more as companions rather than livestock. To us slaughtering horses is on the same level as slaughtering a dog or cat. Also, usually the above livestock is specifically bred for slaughter not recreation.

                          [This message was edited by tyedyecommando on Dec. 06, 2001 at 12:05 PM.]


                          • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tyedyecommando:

                            Also, usually the above livestock is specifically bred for slaughter not recreation.


                            Eating's not recreation [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]?

                            As I posted way back when on an earlier page, we are breeding animals for our (human) personal use and benefit, whether that's for companionship, recreation, entertainment, income, or consumption. What if hunting (and killing) these animals was our form of recreation? Would that be acceptable?


                            • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Eating's not recreation ?

                              As I posted way back when on an earlier page, we are breeding animals for our (human) personal use and benefit, whether that's for companionship, recreation, entertainment, income, or consumption. What if hunting (and killing) these animals was our form of recreation? Would that be acceptable?
                              I can't figure out if you are being a smart ass or being serious. No one has brought up hunting yet in the thread so far; however, I would bet that the response would be similar to the one already in progress.

                              If you want to go out and hunt horses, dogs, or cats to eat then go for it, just don't shoot my horse or dog. Provided you eat them and don't leave the carcus on the ground.

                              In my little made up history book, the main reason that cows, pigs and the like were domesticated were so they could be eaten. Horse were domesticated for riding and plowing yada yada. Although they did get eaten when the human got in a bind.

                              Eating is fun, but if I had as much fun eating as I don in other recreational activities I would be big as a house.

                              In a related question: I was wondering if it was "legal" for a human in the US to consume horse meat. I thought I heard somewhere that it was but I didn't know.


                              • I believe slaughtering horses for food (or maybe at all?) is illegal in a state or two (California?), or someone is trying to make it illegal, but I can't imagine that it's illegal to consume horsemeat.


                                • Although I can be a smart-ass, I am being serious here [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img].

                                  To give you an idea of where I'm coming from, I am a vegetarian, I don't hunt, and I could not send a horse to slaughter. The reasons that I could not send a horse to slaughter are the same for not sending any animal to slaughter via my consumption of it; I can't draw a line between horses and cows (or pigs or sheep...). I can keep animals as companions, and for recreation, and still sleep at night, but I don't think I could make a living from them, and I know I can't eat them. I have mixed feelings about animals being used for entertainment.

                                  This discussion has really made me think about the values I hold and how they determine the actions I take, and what impact those actions have upon other living beings.

                                  Jill [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]


                                  • I don't really have a problem with horsemeat for consumption, but do have a major problem with transportation and the way it is carried out. I also don't see much of a difference in cows, sheep, pigs, chickens, etc. as I would not be able to own one of those and slaughter it either. Heck, my son is still trying to get me to recsue the lobsters at the grocery store [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] (we don't eat them either) I do eat meat, but choose not to eat some animals - lamb & veal come to mind along with something called "Baby Back Ribs - eek!). I also would never own a cow (even a dairy cow) as I would probably never eat beef again. Horses for me are out of the question as are cats, dogs, and guinnea pigs!

                                    I don't think there are any horses that deserve to be sent on a horrible trip to a scary and horrible death. I don't think they are responsible for the way they become due to handling and their environment. I also think other animals don't deserve that kind of death either, and would be willing to pay more to ensure a humane killing.



                                    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
                                      I believe slaughtering horses for food (or maybe at all?) is illegal in a state or two (California?), or someone is trying to make it illegal, but I can't imagine that it's illegal to consume horsemeat.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                      No horse slaughterhouses in California. A fairly recently voter-approved law defines horses as companion animals (same definition as cats and dogs) and says that you can't "knowingly" sell or ship a horse (even out of the state) for slaughter. Not sure of the precise language, but that's the upshot of it.

                                      ***I see trees of green, red roses too. I watch 'em bloom for me and for you. And I think to myself ... what a wonderful world. Yes, what a wonderful world." -- Louie Armstrong.***
                                      Congratulate me! My CANTER cutie is an honor student at Goofball University!


                                      • Hey...I know this is difficult. I did something similar and although it turned out "bad", I do not regret my choice.

                                        If you have the space, time and money, do it and see if the new environment changes. If she doesn't stop the kicking, I wouldn't breed her and I'd consider donating her to the local vet school.

                                        If money isn't a huge issue, I think this may be a risk worth taking.

                                        My own colt's mother was abused, and was violent because of that. Her colt is one of the best behaved animals I have ever met! I know her issue was likely not genetic, but one of the things you have to consider is that she will be the foals teacher....that said, good luck and let us know!

                                        BTW, I read the first page and skipped to the last, so if I missed something, please be nice!


                                        • Spot removed all of her posts (with the details that were revealed, the taxman could have been counting her chickens [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] )making the the whole thread senseless.