• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.



Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Sporthorse Judge writes comment: "Horse won't make 4th level"

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Sporthorse Judge writes comment: "Horse won't make 4th level"

    I scribed for a judge yesterday who is also a sporthorse judge. I have scribed for MANY judges, including some I's and O's on both right and left coasts, and have ALWAYS come away with a good feeling about each judge. WELL, not this time. Zero personality, expressionless face, dry sense of humor that was humorless. Oh, and some really odd comments about some of the rides.

    This person also said she competes and is planning on bringing her mare out at an FEI level. Sitting with her reminded me of a comment she wrote on a friend's mare's in hand test last year. She wrote in the comments, "this horse won't make 4th level". When I read this last year, I thought: That is a bunch of B.S.!! How could any compitent person claim that a horse will not make 4th level based upon it's conformation, it's walk, and it's trot? My friend's mare was very well mannered, so that says something about her mare's brain to me. Having a good brain it one of the most important parts of trainability up the levels.

    What are your thoughts on this?

  • #2
    Chalk it up as a learning experince: you have learned that this is a judge that you will never choose to show under.


    • Original Poster

      Ha, ha, ha. Yeah, not a fan. But, has anyone else ever heard of such a thing, or does anyone follow the same train of thought?

      She judged one of my young mares at the same sporthorse show and commented that my mare was lame in front. Laughed HARD at that one! "No sweety! Mare is as sound as well, I was gonna say a dollar, but that might not be a good analogy! (you get the picture!). My mare just has one white foot in front, and your judgement is way off! Thanks for playing!".


      • #4
        Hmm, wonder if it is the same judge that told a friend of mine her mare
        "needed a stronger hoof wall" in a breed show...we almost wet our pants we were laughing so hard...we could only look at each other and say "REALLY??!"


        • #5
          In fact, some people ARE capable of telling a horse's limits just by their conformation!

          Let's not forget, conformation is not about PRETTY. It's about FUNCTION.

          If I had such comments on a scoresheet, I'd run to the judge and ask more questions. But I have a genuine interest in the critics I get.
          Breeding & Sales
          Facebook | YouTube


          • #6
            Originally posted by EquusMagnificus View Post
            In fact, some people ARE capable of telling a horse's limits just by their conformation!
            Conformation only tells part of the story. Some beautifully conformed horses have no heart, are stupid and/or ill tempered. Some poorly conformed horses have the heart, mind, and will-to-please to overcome all of their conformation faults.


            • Original Poster

              Exactly what Renae said! No one can predict how far a horse will go based on conformation and W-T alone.

              E.M., I too would have asked for a further expansion on the "won't make 4th level comment", but the owner chose not to pursue it. I think it would have been educational. After having sat with this person who is no scintillating conversationalist, I can't immagine a person being able to have a constructive two-way conversation with her about the said topic.


              • #8
                Years ago I had a horse who was a bit weak behind when we began extensions. He would sometimes compensate by swinging one hind leg out to the side to avoid stepping under.

                One renowned judge told me the horse had locked stifles.

                Another renowned judge who was also an international rider told me he had a horse with the same tendencies and that horse went to the Olympics. He then proceeded to tell me how to fix the problem and strengthen the rear end.

                Dressage is a process designed to build the horse's ability. It is not an end in itself.


                • #9
                  Not making 4th level is sort of irrelevant at this point isn't it? That would be like someone telling me my horse won't be a derby horse. Well there is a lot of room inbetween derby horse and can't run a lick, so I think I could live with that. Some people are stupid.
                  McDowell Racing Stables

                  Home Away From Home


                  • #10
                    the QH cross I had as a kid, with the best of minds, and the most barely average trot ever born, made it to FEI... and did well.

                    It's one thing for a judge to add a comment like "very athletic type, should jump great as well"...

                    or negative one like " lack of suspension and hind end strung out behind" .

                    I find it inappropriate for a judge to make a comment negatively predicting the future, Breed Classes are generally one day ( in a very controlled atmosphere) in a growing horse's long childhood. I know of several FEI judges who think a breed show record generally worthless in some cases for predicting a horse's abilities.

                    I think I would be tempted to file a competition evaluation.
                    "It's not how good you ride, It's how good your horse covers for you." -Kristan
                    Magic Rose Farm- home of Beste Gold & Hot Shot
                    Beste Gold & Offspring on Facebook
                    Magic Rose Farm Warmbloods on FB


                    • #11
                      I wonder if this is the same inspector turned judge- that told everyone at inspections like 3-4 years ago in several states that their horses were narrow at the base~LOL~
                      I was at one inspection where there was a girl there with her very first WB at her very first inspection & the inspector told her that her horse would be nice if they could cut its legs & head off & give it a better shoulder- OH!~ and it was narrow at the base..
                      Poor girl left crying.


                      • #12
                        I don't think that judges should make such bold statements as they judge youngsters. It's just a phase in the young horse's life & those statements could stay in everyone's mind for the life of the horse when in fact it might either grow out of the problem or compensate for it in other ways.
                        Producing horses with gentle minds & brilliant movement!


                        • #13
                          I once got the comment: "very cute, but dressage?," at the next show we were called back for the breeders championship. That is showing for you. I never take one persons opinion to heart....but try to take all comments into consideration as part of a whole.
                          Redbud Ranch
                          Check us out on FB


                          • #14
                            I too have done a lot of scribing - and most of the judges I have scribed for are great. The one you are talking about sounds awful - and frankly I think it is long since past time for people to stop ignoring the really bad ones. If it was not fun or educational to scribe for her - it was not fun or educational to ride for her. She gets paid to do a job - if she is doing a poor job, somone needs to hear about it.

                            For dressge to grow as a sport we have to have good judges - unbiased, fair, knowledgable and positive. Without that - what is the incentive to compete?

                            Write a letter to the USDF. You can go to their website and get the names of the people that are in charge of judges. Be specific about your concerns. Sign your name. They will get back to you. One of two things will happen, the judge will get some feedback from the USDF and modify her behavior, or with enough complaints she will stop judging.


                            • #15
                              I would definitely write a letter to the USDF about this. It's totally inappropriate. And why is this judge wasting time being a judge - he/she could travel around the country telling people what levels there horses will be able to compete in for a fee!
                              Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
                              "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"


                              • #16
                                I was scribing at the USEF/USDF Young Horse Championship once upon a time and the judge commented "Oh gawd, I'm not going to be forced to judge THIS!" when a non-warmblood entered the ring.


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Fantastic View Post

                                  What are your thoughts on this?
                                  As a judge myself...embarassed to know she is a fellow judge. Sounds like someone's ego has gotten the better of them...and if they are that bitter and not enjoying their job anymore, they need to retire from judging! As a side note, I've often found the officials that judge like that, and then boast about their own showing, FEI prospect, etc. are often the ones that are an embarrassment in the ring when they do come in with their horse to show!

                                  Our job as a judge is to judge what's in front of us on that particular day ONLY! Each exhibitor has spent countless hours grooming, training, traveling to the show, money spent on entries, hotels, stabling, trainers, lessons, etc., etc. and each deserves a judges undivided attention and their 15 minutes of fame in the ring to show the judge what they've got or what they can do.

                                  Contrary to popular belief, the good judges are really rooting for each and every exhibitor to come in the ring and do well with their horse, be it in dressage, hunters, in hand, etc. And we do keep our fingers crossed that all goes well. What if that particular rider and horse combination only ever wanted to just take dressage lessons at home and attend the occasional show at First Level and never go past that? Does the judge really have to throw in a comment about never being able to do 4th level? And what does that have to do with that particular animal, in that class, on that particular day? What if this is a hunter/jumper person who has decided to switch over to dressage and is just being bit by the dressage bug? Does anyone think that a comment like that will keep the exhibitor interested in staying with the sport? I'm not saying that a judge should sugar coat anything either, but jeepers!

                                  And like others have said, while conformation can tell a lot, under saddle training, heart, attitude, conditioning and growing into oneself can also tell a lot, and sometimes that can take a long time to develop. Crumb, look at Big Ben. If anyone has ever seen him in person or seen a conformation shot of him...even Ian Millar will tell you he's a conformational nightmare as a jumper. But somehow it just worked!

                                  As a scribe, I don't know that there is much that can happen if you complain to the USEF or USDF...but having that complaint on file might end up coming in handy for them at some point.

                                  How disappointing.
                                  Home of Oldenburg, Westphalian & RPSI approved pony stallion Goldhills Brandysnap
                                  Also home to Daventry Equine Appraisals & Equine Expert Witness www.EquineAppraisers.com


                                  • #18
                                    Fantastic, you have a PM.
                                    Mary Lou


                                    Member OMGiH I loff my mares clique


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Jesse'sMom View Post
                                      I wonder if this is the same inspector turned judge- that told everyone at inspections like 3-4 years ago in several states that their horses were narrow at the base~LOL~
                                      I was at one inspection where there was a girl there with her very first WB at her very first inspection & the inspector told her that her horse would be nice if they could cut its legs & head off & give it a better shoulder- OH!~ and it was narrow at the base..
                                      Poor girl left crying.

                                      Hahaha, and if you go through and dressage biomechanics training, they will tell you base narrow is what you WANT, it is much easier to influence a base narrow horse (ie lateral work becomes much easier). Base wide (sprawled) horses are harder to ride in the mid and upper levels! Hmmmm, I had an inspector who did that too - wonder if it was the same inspector?

                                      What an obnoxious comment to the girl

                                      Now, here is the interesting question - what correlation is there between horses who do well "on the line" - ie. look pretty and can walk and big trot in hand, and those who do well under saddle? I read a few statistics two years ago - and I can't remember WHERE, darn it - that said NO CORRELATION AT ALL! And I think much of that is because in-hand classes (and inspections) don't evaluate temperment or the canter - two "kind of" important factors for the performance horse!
                                      www.MysticOakRanch.com Friesian/Warmblood Crosses, the Ultimate Sporthorse
                                      Director, WTF Registry


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by ise@ssl View Post
                                        I would definitely write a letter to the USDF about this. It's totally inappropriate. And why is this judge wasting time being a judge - he/she could travel around the country telling people what levels there horses will be able to compete in for a fee!
                                        They could make quite a good living at that couldn't they? Would be nice ot have such an accurate crystal ball.

                                        There is a draft cross in B.C. (name of course escapes me, read about him in Connections magazine..Dressage Canada publication) who is a P.M.U. auction find. Doing FEI level work and not too shabbily at that apparently. Would have been interesting to see that judge's comments about him as a young horse.