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Who would you breed this mare to?

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  • Who would you breed this mare to?

    I've theorized about this before, but now it's looking like a reality! This is Clairvoya, my 1998 Hanoverian mare, Certus-Wenzel I: http://good-times.webshots.com/album/567529969EtdvHC. She's 17.1, has scored into the 70%s at I1 and has won CDIs, is schooling Grand Prix, and won the AHS inspection she went to last year. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/clairvoya has her full pedigree.

    I'm selling embryos for transfer from her and my other FEI mare, but in the event that I don't sell one I'd like to do ET on her for myself, and I'm looking for some suggestions. I would like to improve her front end - she's quite the powerhouse behind - and I definitely don't want anything any bigger. And I love them hot hot hot, so daddy can have all the fire in the world.

    Any suggestions? I'd certainly take her to another registry if the best match came from a non-AHS approved stallion, but I'd rather not.

    spriesersporthorse.com | farm on Facebook | me on Facebook | blog

  • #2
    I would never say no to Briar. Don schufro is a fave. many to choose from.


    • #3
      Are you only looking for fresh semen if you are willing to try frozen? Here are frozen thoughts:

      Right off the bat, my recommendation for my top pics would be one of the Hanoverian approved Dutch stallions or Don Frederico.

      You might also look at Diamond Hit, Quaterback, Sir Donnerhall, Royal Doruto, and Romanov for frozen semen stallions.

      There is also Bentley or Benidetto as young Belissimo sons, the young His Highness son Hampton, the Rousseau son Ampere, Sarkozy or some others, but they are all having their first foal crops this year or last year so harder to tell.

      Does Scott want you to breed her to Rousseau???? He is of course available fresh.


      • #4
        We have had very good luck with Dressage Royal frozen semen. He is the sire of the current five year old World Champion dressage horse Desperado. So far we have four foals and two more on the way with one dose each.
        "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist


        • Original Poster

          Haven't really picked Scott's brain yet, mmt, but he's on my list to pester I won't be doing this until at least late June, early July (so we can do the first round of horse shows, hopefully go to Gladstone! ), so I'm still in the information-collecting phase. Haven't really given any thought to fresh vs. frozen either - she's a maiden mare, but in top physical shape (haven't had a repo exam yet), and we're all cautiously optimistic.

          LOVE Briar, and I've been very impressed with the Don Schufros. I love all of Rosseau's offsprings' looseness, and their canters; in this mare, I'm really looking to improve the front end in the trot.
          spriesersporthorse.com | farm on Facebook | me on Facebook | blog


          • #6
            If you don't mind going outside the registry then my first choices for her would be Johnson and Vivaldi, both Dutch stallions that are incredible!
            Siegi Belz
            2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
            Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.


            • #7
              I like Hotline with her myself. (LOVELY mare by the way, congrats she is very special!)


              • #8
                With such a mare I would always use something proven. If one has to sell an embryo / foal one often has to look out for something that is known or proven. This hinders us often to live out our ideal cross, with mares that are good (but with no GP record).
                But since your mare has this "it-factor" herself, you can do whatever you want to just based on wanting something that is a match. So something that may not been that known worldwide, but has proven to produce a good percentage of show horses.
                Hotline would most certainly not be on my list for such a mare. Yes great hype around this expensive stallion (I was at the licensing) but sofar I think his reputation is much higher in the US than in Germany and I would still want to wait for the first ones under saddle before I would use him.
                So yes Briar or Don Schufro would be on my list aswell. To improve the front end I would also look out for a bit Holsteiner in the pedigree of the stallion again (there is already Calypso).
                I love Johnson myself with his impressive frontend, but than no hanoverian brand possible. Another option to do a closer checkout, but not leading to hanoverian brand is Blue Horse Leredo. One of the most impressive stallions I have seen in the past. (The proven factor is missing a bit though as I am not aware of having seen offspring).
                I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
                2017: March: Filly by Lissaro - SPS Don Frederico - SPS Prince Thatch
                May: Finnigan - Sandro Hit - SPS Rouletto


                • #9
                  Lovely mare!!

                  Well, if you want fresh cooled vs frozen (because of the ET) and proven, you might want to consider Wolkentanz II who is coming to the US in 2009. http://www.mts.net/~woodhave/

                  I have always found him lovely and if you look at his statistics, given his age and the number of offspring he has sired, he looks like a good producer (all data from the 2008 Jahrbuch Henste).

                  For himself, he has competed through S level (Advanced- FEI) and has 7 1st places, 3 2nds, 6 thirds, 3 fourths and 6 fifths (from the 2008 Jahrbuch Hengste). He placed first in the dressage portion of the SPT (143.9) and 2nd overall (133.6). He got two 10s on rideaibility from the SPT.

                  For his offspring, his FN values are 151 for dressage; his offspring Inspection values are 171 for riding horse points (151 head; 172 neck; 156, saddle position; 157 frame; 169 riding horse points); 153 for legs; and 143 for dressage siring ability from MPT and auction (149 trot, 139 canter, 112 walk, 153 rideability).

                  Even more impressive is if you look at the sport results of his offspring and compare it with similarly aged Weltmeyer sons or grandsons. Waterford (1996 model) has similar indices for dressur and springen, but lower riding horse points. He has 490 offspring to WII's 152 (Hano registered), so 3X as many offspring). Here's where WII looks to be the better producer. Waterford as ZERO horses competing at S class, and only 3 at M/B whereas WII has 5 at S class, and 30+ at M/B or M/A and he has many fewer offspring than Waterford. Just for kicks, I looked up Waikiki who is also a 1996 model (so similar aged) and he aslo has zero at S class and only 1 at M/B and has more offspring (n=343) than WII. So I was thinking, that in comparison to these similarly aged stallions, all with the same sire, WII seemed to be the better producer in comparison to Waterford and Waikiki (even though both have many more offspring). I had a German friend look up the 2008 results and now WII has 10 offspring at S class, so from the 2008 Jahburch Hengste publication (of 2007 results) to 2009, he doubled the percentage of S class offspring.

                  In comparision to his older brother (WI), he has similar FN values, much higher ridinghorse points, and very close MPT results. WI has many more offspring (1387) and only 12 at S class in 2008 (vs 5 for WII with 152 Hannover offspring).

                  Just a thought if you want strong pedigree, strong competition record, and strong siring ability here in NA with cooled semen.
                  Like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/edgewoodmeadowfarm


                  • #10
                    Your mare has long legs and a lovely type, but could ideally have a longer front leg, and the Donnerhall sons don't always add front leg length. I love Don Schufro for dressage ability and he is certainly well proven, but I have also seen a number with a shorter front leg and not enough shoulder freedom. I love Briar, but I have not feel in love yet with any offspring I have seen in Germany. The ones that Mr. Brink has in his barn seem better than those I have seen so far in Germany, so maybe it is a question of the mare.

                    Diamond Hit also I think many times also has offspring that could have a longer front leg. The offspring though I have seen by Don Frederico (think Dramatic from Verden this year) have a lot of shoulder freedom and long enough front legs, but the stallion himself does not always pass on the most correct movement in front even if they have a lot of shoulder freedom.

                    I was thinking along the same line as Siegi actually when I said any of the Dutch stallions that are approved Hanoverian. United is listed on the Celle site, and any Dutch stallions that are VhW approved you can use. Either of those stallions mentioned by Siegi would be quite interesting with your mare.

                    Kris' ideas about Wolkentanz is a very good one since he is in North America, has bred a lot with many horses sucessful in sport, but again, it really depends on what type of front leg you are looking for in the foal, i.e. more shoulder freedom but still flatter, or more knee. That being said, I think Wolkentanz is a coup to have in America.

                    Alexadra's suggestion was a good one although I don't know if Judy Yancey still has Leredo semen. Leredo is lovely, although has not bred that much and I do not know how much his offspring are under saddle. The Holsteiner blood o him or another would give you likely a more "modern" knee action in the foal, but you need to be careful that it is not too much knee like some of the Sandro Hits have where the foot does not extend past the point of the knee easily. If you look to Blue Hors stallions, you can also look at Zack, he also has not had enough foals yet to really tell very much.

                    I loved the mare by Da Caprio that was shown as a young horse in Verden and he has had many nice offspring. However, you would need to investigate further his relability in particular to add length of front leg and shoulder freedom.

                    Anyway, you have lots of interesting choices and time to look.


                    • #11
                      How fun to pick stallions for such a fab mare!

                      If she were mine and I wanted to improve the front end, yes, Don Frederico will do this. They tend to have some pizzaz too. I have two of them and both are drastic improvements over the dam in terms of shoulder freedom, though I don't think he will add length of leg. You cannot argue with his production record.

                      I would use Belissimo M if she were mine!. I think he stamps with long front legs and tonnes of knee action and shoulder freedom, he is SO consistant in throwing this from what I have seen anyways. He is also quite modern, which would go very well with your big girl.

                      "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.


                      • #12
                        I like Don Schufro as well. But he is known to add size. You would likely get a very large horse from that cross.

                        Nice girl
                        See those flying monkeys? They work for me.