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Another interesting TB pedigree code crack maybe re Gainsborough

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  • Another interesting TB pedigree code crack maybe re Gainsborough

    Gainsborough was by Bayardo, a son of Bay Ronald, out of a mare named Rosedrop. Gainsborough was the sire of Solario and Hyperion, among others, and they are both fine lines that have produced many sport TBs. Of course Bayardo came from lines that have infused all the flavors of WB through his sire Bay Ronald, but...

    I just traced down Gainsborough's tail female, and he goes back to Bronze, one of the four Buzzard/Alexander Mare siblings, one of whom, Castrel, is the tail male sire of the Le Sancy line; and another of whom, Selim, is the tail male sire of the Dollar line. The other was Rubens, who is found in the dam side pedigrees of a large number of the early Grand National (Aintree) steeplechase winners.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire

  • #2
    Viney, I have traced all my mares, starting with your help, to all of the top mares and stallions you've been naming. Most of the people here who post pedigrees have similar bloodlines. Most of the top WB approved stallions, here and in Europe have all these bloodlines. Just how unusual is this? Do we all have good taste or do all TB's basically track back to these good lines? What percentage of TB's have such good bloodlines?

    Unless we're only hearing about, or owning, the really good sporthorse bloodlines for TB's, it seems like they all are bred this way. Are these good lines 10%, 25% or 80% of all TB's? Basically, I guess I'm asking if we made good choices or if it wouldn't really matter who the horse was as they all go back to the same old bloodlines anyway.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Tiki View Post
      Viney, I have traced all my mares, starting with your help, to all of the top mares and stallions you've been naming. Most of the people here who post pedigrees have similar bloodlines. Most of the top WB approved stallions, here and in Europe have all these bloodlines. Just how unusual is this? Do we all have good taste or do all TB's basically track back to these good lines? What percentage of TB's have such good bloodlines?

      Unless we're only hearing about, or owning, the really good sporthorse bloodlines for TB's, it seems like they all are bred this way. Are these good lines 10%, 25% or 80% of all TB's? Basically, I guess I'm asking if we made good choices or if it wouldn't really matter who the horse was as they all go back to the same old bloodlines anyway.
      The Alexander mare had 3 stalions siblings, Castrel, Rubens and Selim. If you go back another 3 generations you're at Herod. The further back you go the smaller the breeding population. These bloodlines are not unique at all.
      I'd be more interested in hearing about TB bloodlines/families that have produced recent performers ( and not racing performers ).
      Many times we hear on these threads that stallion 'XYZ' produces Hunters or Jumpers but few examples of current, competing horses are given. And when an example is given often it turns out to be non verifiable as the horse isn't even competing in USEF recognized competitions.
      There are a number of TB families that have produced H/J winners in the recent past and are producing them today ( and have verifiable USEF records).
      Perhaps a look at those families and what they have in common would be useful.
      Fan of Sea Accounts

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      • Original Poster

        #4
        Personally I think that the surviving bloodlines of TBs are the ones that produced both winners and producers, and many of those also carry sport horse lines. After all, there has been steeplechasing almost as long as there has been flat racing. There are so many extremely used sirelines that haven't survived (like Highflyer) from the early days. The sirelines that have survived through tail male are very special. So I believe that almost all modern day TBs have it in them to do well in sport, if you can ride them. My personal obsession is to try and find out how and from whom the jump is transmitted, because we do know that it is found in certain bloodlines and female families, and those are the ones to focus on if you are breeding sport TBs.

        The tail female line is of utmost importance, and when you are breeding for a certain trait, it makes sense to use the linebreeding opportunities that you have. I believe, for instance, that (perhaps) if one were to breed a tail male Blacklock line (Ribot, for instance; or one of the Prince Rose boys; or Wild Risk) to a tail female Bronze or Queenie line, the offspring ought to be both athletic and have the jump. Once in the line, it can persist with careful breeding to other lines that are known to jump. There are only three foundationsire lines left, all of which I like to see on the first page of a pedigree, but there are over a hundred tail female families with multiple branches, and only some of those are excellent. When you have a set of siblings like the Buzzard/Alexander mare group that have created jumping dynasties in tail male and tail female, I tend to believe that their descendants are worth pursuing.

        The surviving lines have to have been worth breeding and rebreeding over the centuries. The dead wood got culled. With the modern North American TB emphasis on raw speed over short distances, sport horse people naturally look for lines that emphasize the other qualities of the racing/sport TB. The ones we want (conformation, temperament, and talent) tend to come from certain lines, so there is a good bit of weeding out before purchase or breeding.

        So, Tiki, the answer to your question is a bit of both. Good choices on the part of sport horse breeders and buyers, and lines that have survived and bred on because of their genetic strength that incorporate horses that have the talents we look for.
        Last edited by vineyridge; Dec. 30, 2008, 12:40 PM.
        "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
        Thread killer Extraordinaire

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        • Original Poster

          #5
          One small sample is For The Moment, Jet Run, Castle Magic and the French jumper stallion Night and Day. All are sireline Teddy by different sons; and Teddy is tail female to Bronze. Of course he also has several other lines to the Buzzard/Alexander Mare siblings, mostly through mares.

          Most of Teddy's get have done extremely well as sport horses.
          "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
          Thread killer Extraordinaire

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          • #6
            So, basically, it's really a matter of how many crosses you have, how far back they are and where they are in the pedigree that matter.
            Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
            Now apparently completely invisible!

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            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by Tiki View Post
              So, basically, it's really a matter of how many crosses you have, how far back they are and where they are in the pedigree that matter.
              As far a pedigree analysis is concerned, I'd say that was accurate. WHO the crosses are matters most where paper is concerned, and the horse in front of you is the single most important thing for riding.

              If you take a look at For The Moment's pedigree, you can see that the odds in favor of him having the jump were very high. (Hitchn Celebrate-- http://www.pedigreequery.com/hitchn+celebrate ). Sire line Teddy, damsire is Big Game, linebred top and bottom to Precipitation, Double Jay, Nasrullah, Nearco, Dark Ronald, a line on the first page to Herod through The Tetrarch--AND he had 65 starts in his racing career.

              Here is Night and Day's pedigree. Also dense with lines that have produced jumping horses.
              http://www.pedigreequery.com/night+and+day
              Teddy is tail female Bronze and so is Gainsborough. That's five lines to her on the first page.
              Last edited by vineyridge; Dec. 30, 2008, 01:43 PM.
              "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
              Thread killer Extraordinaire

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              • #8
                Interesting because currently Damascus has proven himself to be very desirable topline for jumpers, Napur and Grand Love, 2 very good Gran Prix horses come immediately to mind, Cocoanut Groves topline on his dams side is Damascus, Damascus is the Teddy line. My new stallion Ironrule has the Damascus/Teddy topline, his jumping scores have been very high.

                nm
                Home of Ironman: GOV, BWP, RPSI, CSHA, AWR, ISR Oldenburg, CWHBA, CSHA, CS, and PHR.
                www.ironmanonline.com

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Originally posted by nsm View Post
                  Interesting because currently Damascus has proven himself to be very desirable topline for jumpers, Napur and Grand Love, 2 very good Gran Prix horses come immediately to mind, Cocoanut Groves topline on his dams side is Damascus, Damascus is the Teddy line. My new stallion Ironrule has the Damascus/Teddy topline, his jumping scores have been very high.

                  nm
                  Nancy, I was poking around yesterday and found a 2008 Ironman daughter who is tail female to Bronze through her daughter Miss Chantrey. The filly is named Ikantu. I was going to ask you if you knew anything about her. If the owner wants to rebreed, try and talk her into Ironrule because that would be a VERY interesting cross. The mare's owner is something like Cherokee Hills Farm.

                  I love Zen's pedigree. He fits my wild hare idea about having all three of the foundation sires on the first page to a T, and they are all through great sport horse sires.
                  Last edited by vineyridge; Dec. 31, 2008, 11:09 AM.
                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                  Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                  • #10
                    I found this guy who stands in England from a Teddy sire line:

                    http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.p...g=5&p=0&f=1&l=

                    Terri
                    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

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                    • #11
                      Vineyridge, Thanks--- and do you per chance know who the dam of Ikantu is? Also I forgot to mention how much I enjoyed reading your origianal post, and that we all appreciate that you graciously share your knowledge with us. Thanks--Nancy
                      Home of Ironman: GOV, BWP, RPSI, CSHA, AWR, ISR Oldenburg, CWHBA, CSHA, CS, and PHR.
                      www.ironmanonline.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Just for fun, I had a few pictures of Zen that the Hill n Dale Farm manager graciously sent me, on my computer- I have to look because I have Damacus and a bunch of the others--

                        NM
                        Attached Files
                        Home of Ironman: GOV, BWP, RPSI, CSHA, AWR, ISR Oldenburg, CWHBA, CSHA, CS, and PHR.
                        www.ironmanonline.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Here are a few of the other stallions: Bayardo, Bayardo, Damascus, Dark Ronald,

                          Nm
                          Attached Files
                          Home of Ironman: GOV, BWP, RPSI, CSHA, AWR, ISR Oldenburg, CWHBA, CSHA, CS, and PHR.
                          www.ironmanonline.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            A couple more; Bay Ronald, Hyperion, Solario, and I threw in Double Jay just because,

                            Nancy
                            Attached Files
                            Home of Ironman: GOV, BWP, RPSI, CSHA, AWR, ISR Oldenburg, CWHBA, CSHA, CS, and PHR.
                            www.ironmanonline.com

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Originally posted by nsm View Post
                              Vineyridge, Thanks--- and do you per chance know who the dam of Ikantu is? Also I forgot to mention how much I enjoyed reading your origianal post, and that we all appreciate that you graciously share your knowledge with us. Thanks--Nancy
                              IF the Sport Horse Breed database is correct, the dam is a TB mare named Classy Lashawn.

                              Zen is gorgeous. I'd love to have him in a pedigree close up. That photographer was certainly good at horse glamor shots.
                              Last edited by vineyridge; Dec. 31, 2008, 06:38 PM.
                              "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                              Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Loved the pictures. I went to bloodlines.net to their early studbook portraits and thought y'all would enjoy seeing some very interesting early horses.

                                #1 is a statue of Bartlett's Childers, the grandsire of Eclipse
                                #2 is Buzzard
                                #3 is Rubens, one of the Buzzard/Alexander Mare quartet
                                #4 is The Flying Dutchman, sire line Selim, yet another of the Buzzard/Alexander Mare quartet
                                #5 is Pantaloon, son of Castrel, another of the Buzzard/Alexander Mare Quartet

                                To my thinking there are only three or four TB phenotypes, and they have been in the breed since the very beginning.
                                Attached Files
                                Last edited by vineyridge; Dec. 31, 2008, 06:45 PM.
                                "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Some more pictures
                                  #1 is St. Simon, and doesn't he look like Dark Ronald? Wonky front legs but they never seemed to bother him or his multitude of very successful offspring.
                                  #2 is Ksar, sireline to The Flying Dutchman
                                  #3 is Ben Faerie, a highly successful modern eventing sire who is sireline to Stockwell
                                  #4 is Stockwell
                                  #5 is High Estate, a Shirley Heights son.
                                  Attached Files
                                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                  Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                                  • #18
                                    French jumper stallion Night and Day
                                    What is the origin of Night and Day?

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                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      Here's a bit of information about Night and Day in this article on his grandson from The Horse Magazine:
                                      http://www.horsemagazine.com/BREEDIN...be/ephebe.html
                                      Last edited by vineyridge; Dec. 31, 2008, 09:12 PM.
                                      "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                      Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                                      • #20
                                        He's gorgeous. Beautiful cross from Galoubet.
                                        Last edited by grayarabpony; Dec. 31, 2008, 10:08 PM.

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