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what happens if you breed a pony mare to a warmblood??

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  • what happens if you breed a pony mare to a warmblood??

    I have a fantastic little connamara/welsh/tb mare. Her sire was a 15.2 hand connemara and her dam was 13.2 welsh/tb cross. She is registered 1/2 connemara She is 14.1 and has done level 4 jumpers with much sucess. She is only 7, so I am hoping to give level 5a shot in the next year or so. She schools 2nd level dressage and has evented training level. She was approved in the ISR sportpony mare book. I am a firm believer that you should only breed great quality mares, and this little lady is awesome. I finally have a barn of my own (only 5 stalls) and would like to try my hand at breeding.

    I want to breed her, but I want something with a little more size. I am not looking to sell the baby, just as a future horse for my self. I am only 5'2'' so I do not need a big horse. I prefer smaller so I can confidently break, start, and train myself. She is pretty dainty with not alot of bone. I was hoping for the baby to be between 15-15.3 hh and not necessarily a pony. Her conformation is pretty darn good and she has a very pretty head and neck. She is slightly long in the back and could use a little more strengh and shortness there. Her canter stride is huge for a little lady and is very well balanced. But, her trot has a little to much knee action and a little too much action in the hocks. A GREAT jump is a must for any stallion I breed to.

    My concern is this. In order to produce a foal that will mature to the size I desire, what size stallion should I breed to? I know nothing is definate and I could end up with anything from a 14hh midget to a 16hh horse (i just want a realistic guess)?? Is it physicially dangerous to breed her to a larger stallion for purposes of carrying the foal? Does anyone have experience with this type of cross?? Any stallion suggestions?? I really like the pony stallion Voyager, if breeding to a larger stallion would be a health risk. If the stallion was approved with the ISR/Old registry, would the foal be registered as a sport pony or an old???

    I love this mare and do not want to endanger her health in anyway. I just want to produce a bigger horse for me and in a couple years hand her over to my daughter to do the kids pony jumpers. I know this is long and I have alot of questions, but any information is greatly appreciated. Thank you!!

  • #2
    While they always say the mare controls the foal size at birth, I understand your concern, I would definitley choose a smaller stallion who tends to have small foals,

    Our 14.3 + hand 5 year old stallion Hot Shot MRF might be a consideration for your mare. He is 1/2 Hanoverian. 1/2 Welsh... He compliments your mare on paper,( foal would be 1/4 Hanoverian, 1/4 connemarra, 3/8 welsh, 1/8 TB). He is a good mover, and can jump! I think you have a very good chance of getting a bit more size and still staying a pony with him. Good Luck with her!

    here is a link to him at the freejumping competition held this fall at Hedgeland in VA here he jumped 1M.30, placed 4 against all horses, , at Dressage At Devon under saddle as a 4yo where he was 6th and 7th against horses, and a link to his pedigree.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcKiktKfLLw
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALZp9Kyg5yQ
    http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?z=l...ar=&birthland=
    Last edited by MagicRoseFarm; Dec. 12, 2008, 07:53 PM.
    "It's not how good you ride, It's how good your horse covers for you." -Kristan
    Magic Rose Farm- home of Beste Gold & Hot Shot
    Beste Gold & Offspring on Facebook
    Magic Rose Farm Warmbloods on FB

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    • #3
      Cute user name--ponygotsprings..sounds like your pony!
      At her size---I would tell folks aiming for a pony, that my boy would not be a good match... as he can throw some size when combined with big genes..she has the 1/2 TB in the damside.. He has 12% TB -3 generations back--but it tends to come out moreso with the mare having TB gentics..
      I dont know if you would get the height you are aiming for,but I feel strongly that you would go over pony size... but he has incredible scope which I think you would enjoy in the jumpers. video is up on the website
      Windswept Stables-Specializing in Ponies
      Sales, Breaking,Training,Showing, Stud Service

      Home of 2008 Sire of Year Reserve Champion
      Pony Hunter Breeding - Empires Power

      www.EmpiresPower.com

      Comment


      • #4
        Wow, Windswept Stables, the front end of your pony stallion in the jumper ring is outstanding!!

        Anyways, why not consider ET transfer with your mare, ponygotsprings? You could use a much bigger donor mare, and choose a stallion that matches all your criteria, that has the same proportions as your mare (except for much taller, and the shorter stronger back you requested), and you may get your ideal horse. That's probably something I would consider and a much safer bet for your precious mare. However, it will most certainly cost more. But may be worth it to get that extra size.

        To answer your next question, to get a horse in the 15.2-15.3hh range, you really need to be breeding to something at least 16.2-17hh in my opinion if the pony is 14.1hh. Although, its really tough to say.

        Comment


        • #5
          Warmbloods cross well with both Connemara and Welsh mares.

          All of Nevada's offspring out of 11h - 14.1h mares have matured 15.0 to 15.3. Nevada is just barely 16h, but he does tend to add size to a smaller mare. He is a lighter bodied horse, and that is the bigger concern when breeding to a larger stallion.

          Photos: Connemara/Dutch/TB cross out of a 14h mare has matured 15.2-3. He has been a super jumper, and is foxhunting - led the main field on Thanksgiving Day. The other is a Welsh/Dutch/TB cross out of a 11h mare. He is about 15h (pictured here at 3-4)
          Attached Files

          Comment


          • #6
            I bred an 11 hand welsh mare to my 16.0 hand thoroughbred stallion and got a medium pony. She had no problem with size at birth. I've always been told that they are born to fit the mother and grow more to the father's size.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by horserider12 View Post
              I bred an 11 hand welsh mare to my 16.0 hand thoroughbred stallion and got a medium pony. She had no problem with size at birth. I've always been told that they are born to fit the mother and grow more to the father's size.
              Very risky. I would never ever breed with that size difference.
              Windswept Stables-Specializing in Ponies
              Sales, Breaking,Training,Showing, Stud Service

              Home of 2008 Sire of Year Reserve Champion
              Pony Hunter Breeding - Empires Power

              www.EmpiresPower.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Quote:
                Originally Posted by horserider12
                I bred an 11 hand welsh mare to my 16.0 hand thoroughbred stallion and got a medium pony. She had no problem with size at birth. I've always been told that they are born to fit the mother and grow more to the father's size.

                Originally posted by Windswept Stable View Post
                Very risky. I would never ever breed with that size difference.
                One of my regular breeders (TB mares) had booked "2" for one year. She had them at the repro vet that I was using for collecting. When we arrived, the vet pointed me to one of the mares she had waiting in the tease stall, and it was the tiny 11h Welsh mare. I was very upset, but the vet kept saying it would be fine.

                Luckily the mare foaled easily, but the baby was 14.3 at just 3 years old. so out grew what they hoped.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Since your mare is Approved ISR Sport Pony your foal is eligible for ISR Sport Pony Division inspection/registration. I believe if she were bred to either a Purebred Welsh or Connemara Stallion the foal would also be eligible for partbred registration with those organizations. I don't know about welsh but there are several Connemara stallions who are around 15 HH, and there are presently three Connemara Stallions approved ISR Sport Pony.
                  Redbud Ranch
                  Check us out on FB

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                  • #10
                    I have heard that in Germany they use warmblood mares with pony stallions. The breeder of my filly did this and got a "pre-shrunk" pony with warmblood movement. very cute..

                    Another person I know of, bred a welsh pony mare to Sandreo and will end up with a full size warmblood. - huge.

                    I'd stick to warmblood mares with pony stallions to be on the safe side.
                    Fresh, Frozen & ISO Warmblood Breedings FB Group

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Fist and foremost thank you to everyone who has offered their advise, I really appreciate it. You all have beautiful stallions. I have considered using ET with her, however, that just gets so expensive and is not exactly always effective. I have also considered breeding her to something welsh/connemara, but I was really hoping to try her with an actual warmblood. The welsh or connemara seems to be the most logical choice. I have seen some smaller westphalian and swedish stallions under 16hh, any ideas? I wouldnt really want to breed her to anything more than 16hh.

                      I have definatly heard of doing this the opposite way with pony stallions/wb mares in Europe with great results, just had not heard of many examples the other way around.

                      IF she were approved in the sport pony book AND bred to a warmblood (not a pony stallion) that was in the ISR/Old NA book, would the baby be eligible for old papers, isr papers, or sport pony papers?? This is confusing to me because the foal could actually be a full sized horse by a full sized stallion and not even a pony, so would it have pony papers?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If one of the parents is a pony, then it is only eligible for ISR Sport Pony, regardless of the final size.

                        Take a look at Sweet Rock Solid. He is gorgeous. A great mover, a great jumper and an absolutely superb temperament. I saw him at his ISR inspection with mares all around and he was 'rock solid' and sweet. He's about 14.2h, but he's very solid and very impressive and he takes up a lot of leg, so he won't feel small to you.

                        This is a new pony, Champion's Devito, by FS Champion de Luxe. He's only 3, but listed as 15.1. Champion de Luxe, his sire, is awsome. He also has FS Don't Worry on the dam side. He also has a Certified Breeding License with ISR Sport Pony.

                        I think a German Riding Pony would be your best cross for your mare. They are just about all large, or a little over, have incredible movement and jump, take up a lot of leg, and look like small WB's with all the great, big movement in a smaller package.
                        Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
                        Now apparently completely invisible!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Pretty sure if you choose a stallion approved with the ISR/OLD NA (horse or pony stallion) your foal will still be inspected/registered ISR Sport Pony and carry the ISR Pony Brand. I think no matter who you chose, chose a stallion who complements your mare and suits your goals in type, talent and temperament.
                          Redbud Ranch
                          Check us out on FB

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            What is the prevelance of German Sport Ponies/German Riding Ponies doing level 5/6 jumpers and maybe even a little higher??? I am hoping to breed something with the scope to accomplish this. The mare should be able to do level 5. Jump in a stallion is most important to me which was why I was originally looking into wb as opposed to pony stallions. But, I am just wondering it there are any such pony stallions competing in the higher stuff??

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              You should check out this farms studs. I saw two of them at an ISR/Old NA inspection and they were very nice. I introduced myself to the owner and she was super nice. I would send her an email and describe your mare and see which of her boys she would suggest.

                              http://www.throughconnection.com/

                              Also, what do you want to do with the baby? Jumpers like mom? Or more eventing? Or hunters? If the first two and not the third I would not worry about your mares knee or hock movement unless if is incorrect or extreme.

                              Now that we have heard all about your pony mare we are gonna need pictures and video! You can't leave us hanging!!! (Welcome by the way!!)
                              There are stars in the Southern sky and if ever you decide you should go there is a taste of time sweetened honey.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                http://www.syndicatlinaro.com/videosSL.php

                                If you'd like to see some Jumping Pony Stallions....check out this link. Show Jumping is hugely popular in France and many of these stallions are available by frozen.
                                Redbud Ranch
                                Check us out on FB

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  You could try an arabian. You wouldn't get a warmblood obviously from the cross, but if you want a little more size (not anything huge), a shorter back, and more bone, that would probably do it. There are several that are in the 15-16hh range that probably would work okay with your mare. www.stanleyranch.com has two nice stallions that jump (and do dressage, and field hunting, and endurance. Multi purpose boys ). You also have the added benefit of the rounder barrel of the arabian, which, if you don't get a huge increase in size, will at least make you have the feeling of riding a horse. And the foals would be registerable as HA in the Arabian registry ofcourse.
                                  "Sadly, some people's greatest skill, is being an idiot". (facebook profile pic I saw).

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Ponygotsprings View Post
                                    I have a fantastic little connamara/welsh/tb mare. Her sire was a 15.2 hand connemara and her dam was 13.2 welsh/tb cross. She is registered 1/2 connemara She is 14.1 and has done level 4 jumpers with much sucess.

                                    My concern is this. In order to produce a foal that will mature to the size I desire, what size stallion should I breed to? I know nothing is definate and I could end up with anything from a 14hh midget to a 16hh horse (i just want a realistic guess)?? Is it physicially dangerous to breed her to a larger stallion for purposes of carrying the foal? Does anyone have experience with this type of cross?? Any stallion suggestions?? I really like the pony stallion Voyager, if breeding to a larger stallion would be a health risk. If the stallion was approved with the ISR/Old registry, would the foal be registered as a sport pony or an old???

                                    I love this mare and do not want to endanger her health in anyway. I just want to produce a bigger horse for me and in a couple years hand her over to my daughter to do the kids pony jumpers. I know this is long and I have alot of questions, but any information is greatly appreciated. Thank you!!
                                    I bred my 14.2hh Arab to a 16.3hh WB who had NOTHING in his pedigree smaller than 16hh. My mare is a stout gal -- built like a cob -- and she had already had one foal. She had no problems foaling at all. The foal (now 5 yrs old) is just a whisper over 15hh (sigh). I have since learned over 4 foals for this mare that she simply does NOT produce height. She does produce width <g>.

                                    I have another Arab mare -- about 15-15.1hh -- her foal by a 15.3hh stallion finished taller than his sire! And her second foal -- by a 16.1hh stallion -- finished over 16hh. She ALWAYS throws height.

                                    So it's just real hard to tell what your mare will do. If you study her pedigree and search around you might be able to see a pattern, but otherwise you just have to learn through trial & error. There are certain sires known to throw height -- try to find one of those. Maybe a taller German Riding Pony stallion or WB in the 16-16.1hh range. I remember seeing somewhere a Rotspon son who was only 15.1hh -- something like that (and speaking of which, there are stallions who often produce "small" -- Rotspon is one).

                                    I would not go with a super tall stallion because it's liable to backfire on you -- your mare does have TB back there and the height could be expressed through there.

                                    Don't worry too much about the size difference -- the famous study "proving" the size of the mare controlled the size of the foal till birth was done using ponies & draft horses.

                                    However, as a maiden, it probably wouldn't hurt to try to pick a stallion in the 15.2 - 16hh range. Good luck -- I'm sure it will be a great foal.

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                                    • #19
                                      There's also Pacific http://www.millcreektrakehners.com/about.html
                                      Stübben North America
                                      Los Angeles - Ventura County - San Luis Obispo

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I would be concerned that your mare is a maiden breeding to a large stallion. If she wasn't and her foaling was uncomplicated I might be tempted. The thing is, you clearly love her and you might be OK, but suppose you weren't? Could you live with yourself if you lost both the mare and the foal?

                                        This stallion fits your jumping criteria and if you look at his progeny (click on the slide show and note Holiday), you can see that his progeny's jumping ability isn't a concern!

                                        http://www.foxcreekfarm.com/germanri...ystallion.html

                                        He's also fully Welsh, so you would get half Welsh and Sport Pony papers.

                                        If you are set on a warmblood, then Ridley is 14.3 hh

                                        http://www.fair-windsfarm.com/page6.html
                                        www.juniperridgeranch.us
                                        Visit us on Facebook!

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