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3 articles on Holsteiner stallion approval and auction

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  • 3 articles on Holsteiner stallion approval and auction

    Horse International magazine will soon be publishing three articles on the Holsteiner Verband's stallion approval and auction: a news story, an interview I conducted with Dr. Thomas Nissen, and an interview I conducted with Bo Kristoffersen. The articles may be previewed on my blog, accessible through the News page on www.morningside-stud.com

    There is something for everyone in these articles: the role of TBs in sport horse breeding, what a top producer of sport horses looks for in 3-year-olds, etc.
    Morningside Stud
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  • #2
    The Nissen interview is very bold and very relevant to recent discussions.

    Thanks for sharing these, Tom.
    Liz
    Ainninn House Stud
    Irish Draughts and Connemaras
    Co. Westmeath, Ireland

    Comment


    • #3
      Can I ask you about this

      The dearth of stallions competing in international eventing is probably due to the inherent risks in eventing plus the enhanced sense of self-preservation that many stallions seem to possess.

      How then do you selectively breed for 3 day eventers?
      www.juniperridgeranch.us
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      • #4
        All 3 articles were very interesting. Thanks for writing them and sharing them with us. It is very interesting to hear the Holsteiner Verbands thoughts on globalization (or lack thereof) of the breed.
        Kris
        www.edgewoodmeadowfarm.com
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        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Molly Malone View Post
          Can I ask you about this

          The dearth of stallions competing in international eventing is probably due to the inherent risks in eventing plus the enhanced sense of self-preservation that many stallions seem to possess.

          How then do you selectively breed for 3 day eventers?
          Good question. It's possible though, because a lot of event horses actually do go back to a few stallion (and mare) lines that show prepotency for this discipline. It's the task for each breeder to figure out which ones meet their desires to use.

          The TB world has quite a few that seem to be very reproducible event horse sires (recently, Heraldik xx for example). The Holsteiners have a pool of stallions that are popping up consistently, dito for Trakehners.
          And when looking, don't limit yourself to say, 4* horses only. If a stallion, or line, has produced a significant number of CCI/CIC* and ** horses, then take into consideration that many of them are amateur-owned and ridden and give a very strong indication of where this can get you when you chose to breed to this line.

          Thanks Tom for these well-written articles. Always a pleasure!!
          www.trakehners-international.com
          www.fontana-syndikat.de

          Comment


          • #6
            Thank you, Tom, for these insightful articles!
            Sakura Hill Farm
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            Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.

            Comment


            • #7
              Tom, is the Salient who is the damsire of Carlo, the 1982 British High Top son?

              I see that Tin Rod is in two of the stallions. He has a very interesting pedigree indeed, because he is very heavily linebred on Barcaldine/Marco. I don't think I've ever seen a modern day pedigree with that much Marco. Lovely combination of some Herod lines with the Matchem and with Eclipse.
              "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
              Thread killer Extraordinaire

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Thanks to everyone for appreciating the articles.

                vineyridge, yes Salient xx is by High Top xx and out of the mare Expansive xx by Exbury xx.

                I agree with Maren about not just focusing on stallions that have produced 4* horses for the reason she cites. Also there are few 4* competitions in the world, compared to 4* and 5* showjumping competitions, so eventing does not give as many chances as showjumping to succeed at the top level(s).

                Molly Malone: You ask a good/tough question. There are very few people who breed (successfully) specifically for eventing. (Notable examples are Sam Barr in the UK and Mr. Butts (deceased) in Germany.) Most eventing horses are residuals, in my opinion. Not fast enough to race. Not careful enough to showjump. But super brave on the cross-country.
                Morningside Stud
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                • #9
                  Tom, the reason I asked about Salient is because his pedigree looks to me to be a very good example of NH breeding lines. Whether you believe that chasers have the Jump, they are certainly less likely to kill it in their offspring. And are good bets when looking to produce sporthorses.
                  JMO, naturally.

                  Forgot to say that I enjoyed all the articles immensely. Particularly the interview with Dr. Nissen, which was eye opening, to say the least.
                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                  Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                    Forgot to say that I enjoyed all the articles immensely. Particularly the interview with Dr. Nissen, which was eye opening, to say the least.
                    Me too.

                    About the eventing stallions -- I wonder if its not the owners, more than the stallions themselves, who are protective!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Good articles from Tom ! I think they are very insightful for breeders in this country to try and grasp the mindset of the breeders in Holstein.

                      I was there as well and I completely agree with Tom's assessment of the stallions. My favorite was the 2nd reserve by Carlos / Salient xx /Ahorn / Calypso II . He was a tremendous type with ENORMOUS stallion presence. Great jumper, great mover. Ariadus , Chromatico and Cyrano come from this direct motherline as well.

                      I purchased a filly for a client that is now coming a 3 yr old mare by Carlos / Acorado / Landgraf / Lord / Ramiro . She looks and jumps alot like her premium stallion brother.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Thanks, Reece. We agree on the Carlos son, Carlo. I told Steve and Walter throughout the week that the Carlos was my champion. I mentioned this to Nissen also but did not include it in the published interview.
                        Morningside Stud
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                        Comment


                        • #13
                          [QUOTE=Bayhawk;3649913]Good articles from Tom ! I think they are very insightful for breeders in this country to try and grasp the mindset of the breeders in Holstein.

                          Quite so. Re: past exchanges concerning the importance of a horse's BRAIN, I couldn't help but take note of the following (from Nissen): " loose-jumping the stallion candidates. ... assessing their ... reactions, and MIND for the job...." (Caps mine).

                          I also thought the descriptions of the Verband's objectives (especially as distinct from some other registries) support Tri's view that they are more in competition with than supportive of efforts to build an American sport horse industry and this is "just good business" on the part of breeders in Holstein.
                          http://www.tunnelsendfarm.com

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            fish, the words you cite are mine, not Nissen's: "The entire day on Thursday was spent loose-jumping the stallion candidates. Along with assessing their athleticism, scope, technique, reactions, and mind for the job, this exercise also provided the first opportunity to properly evaluate the canter."

                            I think you may be missing a bit of the nuance regarding the Verband's position. The number 1 priority is the breeder in the Holstein region, their members. This is normal and what any reasonable person would expect their number 1 priority to be. They are increasingly willing to be helpful to and supportive of breeders in the rest of Germany, and in some other countries, but they do so without the ambitions of the KWPN and some other studbooks for world domination. They have a monopoly on some precious genes and although they are willing to share the genes they are not trying to build a world-wide network of members.

                            I think the Holsteiner Verband's perspective actually is the most supportive of American breeders because they are not selling you the notion that you can replicate in the US what they do in Holstein. They are being realistic about how successful one can be breeding "Holsteiners" outside of Holstein and they are realistic about what they can do for foreign breeders as a relatively small studbook.

                            I think US breeders would make much more of an impact on sport and breeding if you did not try to replicate in the US what the Dutch and Belgians and Germans, etc do and built your own brand of horse using the top genetics available to you from across the globe. I know that people like to associate themselves with success, and the Dutch, Germans, Belgians etc have been very successful, but there is no way you can replicate their success in the US if you are playing on their field and within their rules.
                            Last edited by tom; Nov. 13, 2008, 11:01 AM. Reason: spelling
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tom View Post
                              Thanks, Reece. We agree on the Carlos son, Carlo. I told Steve and Walter throughout the week that the Carlos was my champion. I mentioned this to Nissen also but did not include it in the published interview.
                              Yes ! I couldn't take my eyes off of him. I think that the Canto may have edged him out a bit on sheer type but there was no doubt in my mind that the Carlos was the best all around stallion. He had the most beautiful lines.

                              The grandmother of this stallion also represented another stallion by Cassini I that was not approved. Two potential stallions coming from the Ahorn mare.....pretty good !

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by tom View Post

                                I think US breeders would make much more of an impact on sport and breeding if you did not try to replciate in the US what the Dutch and Belgians and Germans, etc do and built your own brand of horse using the top genetics available to you from across the globe. I know that people like to associate themselves with success, and the Dutch, Germans, Belgians etc have been very successful, but there is no way you can replicate their success in the US if you are playing on their field and within their rules.

                                Breeding sporthorses is a teeny industry in the US. It is a significant industry in several European countries. I don't think most American breeders are aiming at producing international competitors like you are, Tom. So the standard for success is different.
                                www.oakhollowstable.blogspot.com

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Photos of the event can be seen here:

                                  http://www.reit-bilder.de/php/index....teiner+Verband
                                  Tracy Geller
                                  www.sixpoundfarm.com
                                  Find me on Facebook!

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                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    oakstable, all the more reason not to be constrained by the European studbooks that DO have as their mission the breeding of horses for top international sport!

                                    So if the mission of a group of US breeders is to breed for top international sport I still think they'd do better by using selected foreign genetics but not being constrained by the foreign rules.

                                    And if the mission of another group of breeders is to breed for the amateur/pleasure market I still think they'd do better using selected foreign genetics but not being constrained by the foreign rules!

                                    In any case, I'm here, you (all) are there, and people are free to do as they like.
                                    Morningside Stud
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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by tom View Post
                                      fish, the words you cite are mine, not Nissen's: "The entire day on Thursday was spent loose-jumping the stallion candidates. Along with assessing their athleticism, scope, technique, reactions, and mind for the job, this exercise also provided the first opportunity to properly evaluate the canter."

                                      I think you may be missing a bit of the nuance regarding the Verband's position. The number 1 priority is the breeder in the Holstein region, their members. This is normal and what any reasonable person would expect their number 1 priority to be. They are increasingly willing to be helpful to and supportive of breeders in the rest of Germany, and in some other countries, but they do so without the ambitions of the KWPN and some other studbooks for world domination. They have a monopoly on some precious genes and although they are willing to share the genes they are not trying to build a world-wide network of members.

                                      I think the Holsteiner Verband's perspective actually is the most supportive of American breeders because they are not selling you the notion that you can replicate in the US what they do in Holstein. They are being realistic about how successful one can be breeding "Holsteiners" outside of Holstein and they are realistic about what they can do for foreign breeders as a relatively small studbook.

                                      I think US breeders would make much more of an impact on sport and breeding if you did not try to replicate in the US what the Dutch and Belgians and Germans, etc do and built your own brand of horse using the top genetics available to you from across the globe. I know that people like to associate themselves with success, and the Dutch, Germans, Belgians etc have been very successful, but there is no way you can replicate their success in the US if you are playing on their field and within their rules.
                                      No, Tom, I don't think I missed any "nuance in regarding the Verband's position" (despite my misattribution of that quote ). Quite to the contrary, I believe we are in entire agreement regarding the way in which "US breeders would make ... more of an impact on sport and breeding." As you say, "there is no way [we] can replicate their success in the US... playing on their field and within their rules."--- which is why, I believe, that breeders like Reece, Ann Kitchel, etc., have moved so much of their operations to Europe. If we wish to compete without pretty much expatriating, we need to do as the Verband did to develope THEIR OWN industry-- i.e. study OUR own mare base, seek out the best possible stallions to improve upon it, and make rules and build associations which capitalize on OUR own resources. IOW, I think it behooves us to pay the Holstein Verband the high compliment of learning from what they've done and imitating it rather than trying to make our horses and ourselves what we never can be: i.e. Holsteiners.

                                      As for the Verband being helpful to American breeders, I have, myself, definitely found that to be the case: 6 years ago I called the Verband for advice on breeding one of my TB mares. Felix Einhaus was kind enough to review videos of her, discuss my goals, and recommend the young stallion Cunningham. Despite the fact that Cunningham was not AHHA approved and would never do a 100 DT, Felix was positive this horse was of the best type and pedigree for my American mare and purposes. I followed his advice, and the results have been beyond my highest dreams: Cunningham is a Grand National Champion hunter, and my colts by him have attracted the interest of top trainers, none of whom care whether they have papers or not. I'll always be grateful to Felix (and the Verband) for helping me find the best Holsteiner stallion to help me achieve that goal.
                                      http://www.tunnelsendfarm.com

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        OK, I understand you now. But I do not think the Verband sees itself in competition with US breeders or the AHHA.

                                        I met Felix on this trip and he is a delightful man. He is working for the southern verbands now.

                                        Your statement, "study OUR own mare base, seek out the best possible stallions to improve upon it, and make rules and build associations which capitalize on OUR own resources" is right on target and a perspective that I have argued on the Holsteiner bulletin board for years since around 2001.
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