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Has anyone banked DNA for possible future cloning?

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  • Has anyone banked DNA for possible future cloning?

    If you have, who did you use?

    I am looking at the ad in the Chronicle classifieds under "Breeding Services". The cost is only $1500 initially plus $150 a year storage which seems pretty reasonable (although cloning is much, much more, of course). I don't know the name of the company from the ad, nor do they list a website. The phone number given is 908-310-3208 with an email address of horsecloning@yahoo.com

    They have a second ad under the same category which seems to offer cloning services - you can order a DVD.

  • #2
    When I arranged tissue collection for a stallion in Europe, I contacted Eric Palmer (Cryozotech) directly. He will give you the protocol and then you can have a local vet collect the necessary tissues, package them in the required media, and ship them to the nearest cloning/tissue culture facility. They then attempt to culture the cells, and if they are successful, they will freeze and store them for you until you wish to use them. I believe he works with a company in Texas. Will see if I can find their contact info as I initially contacted them and they referred me to Dr. Palmer in France.

    Comment


    • #3
      I used Viagen. It was easy and they are great to deal with. I have my Feiner Graf/Lungau mare Fiona gene banked with them in the hopes that I can someday in the very near future clone her.

      The contact info is : (I think he has a bunch of people working for him but when I e-mailed with a question he got back to me within 4 hours!)

      Blake Russell
      Vice President of Sales and Business Development
      ViaGen Inc.
      12357-A Riata Trace Pkwy, Suite 100
      Austin, TX 78727
      Phone: (512) 401-7008
      Fax: (512) 401-5919

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Thank you very much to both of you. I am continuing to investigate at this point.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Waterwitch View Post
          When I arranged tissue collection for a stallion in Europe, I contacted Eric Palmer (Cryozotech) directly. He will give you the protocol and then you can have a local vet collect the necessary tissues, package them in the required media, and ship them to the nearest cloning/tissue culture facility. They then attempt to culture the cells, and if they are successful, they will freeze and store them for you until you wish to use them. I believe he works with a company in Texas. Will see if I can find their contact info as I initially contacted them and they referred me to Dr. Palmer in France.
          May I ask how much they charge for the tissue collection and how much Cryozootech charges for doing the actual cloning now? I can't find the pricing info at their website. When I talked to Dr. Palmer 4 years ago, it was 5K Euros to collect the skin tissue and 250K for cloning. I hope the price has come down since.
          Violet
          Wonderful Sport Horses
          http://www.1derful.com
          http://www.facebook.com/1derful

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          • #6
            Originally posted by 1derful View Post
            May I ask how much they charge for the tissue collection and how much Cryozootech charges for doing the actual cloning now? I can't find the pricing info at their website. When I talked to Dr. Palmer 4 years ago, it was 5K Euros to collect the skin tissue and 250K for cloning. I hope the price has come down since.
            While I only handled the technical part for the interested party (ie. not the financing) your numbers sound similar to what I remember (although the actual cloning quote might have been slightly less...?). As far as tissue collection, the stallion's regular veterinarian was used and he was paid for the tissue collection and Fedexing everything to Cryozootech. We were successful getting viable cells for culture even though the horse had been euthanized several hours prior to collection.

            Comment


            • #7
              A successful clone with Viagen is currently $150K. I keep hoping it will come down. It was $1500 for the collection then $150 per year for the storage.

              To quote Viagen's VP (see above) this excerpt from an e-mail he sent me.

              " We charge $150,000 for a 60 day old, vet examined, healthy, insurable foal. The final 80% is not due until the foal passes all inspection and you take the foal home.
              Our foals are doing great. We have not had a single problem with any of the foals. As you know with horses in general that is an amazing record. "

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Bellfleur View Post

                " We charge $150,000 for a 60 day old, vet examined, healthy, insurable foal. The final 80% is not due until the foal passes all inspection and you take the foal home.
                Our foals are doing great. We have not had a single problem with any of the foals. As you know with horses in general that is an amazing record. "
                Just out of curiosity, can you insure the resulting clone as a foal for anything close to 150K? Also, since you mentioned you want to clone a mare, will she be registerable in any of the WB registry in case you want to breed her someday? Very interesting.

                Caitlin
                Caitlin
                *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
                http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01

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                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Thank you to everyone. Bellfleur & RedMare brought up an issue I hadn't even thought about - insurance:

                  Originally posted by Bellfleur View Post
                  . . . . To quote Viagen's VP (see above) this excerpt from an e-mail he sent me.

                  " We charge $150,000 for a 60 day old, vet examined, healthy, insurable foal. The final 80% is not due until the foal passes all inspection and you take the foal home. . . ."
                  It sounds from the above post as if you have "only" $30,000 into the foal up to 60 days of age. (Don't get me wrong, $30,000 for a horse sounds like an incredible amount to me - at least 15 times what we have ever paid for a horse!)

                  Originally posted by RedMare01 View Post
                  Just out of curiosity, can you insure the resulting clone as a foal for anything close to 150K? Also, since you mentioned you want to clone a mare, will she be registerable in any of the WB registry in case you want to breed her someday? Very interesting.

                  Caitlin
                  I hadn't thought about insurance, but I sure hope you can insure your investment!

                  The mare we are thinking about preserving DNA from is a TB so there would be no registry, unless something like PHR (maybe??) But it is a good question as to how clones are registered or if they can be registered - mare or stallion. Wasn't Gem Twist a TB? I know his clone is NOT going to be registered with that old stick-in-the-mud Jockey Club.

                  Is it a lot cheaper to clone cattle? I keep wondering because there are a LOT of dairy cows cloned. I somehow just can't imagine a farmer going, "Oh, I have an extra $150,000 lying around, guess I'll clone my best milker, Bessie, this year & than, maybe they'll give me a deal on two, so next year it'll be Bossie." Of course, we can't get into a cattle cloning discussion because that isn't horsey! Just wondering about comparative costs & why cows would be a lot cheaper.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Evalee Hunter View Post
                    Thank you to everyone. Bellfleur & RedMare brought up an issue I hadn't even thought about - insurance:



                    It sounds from the above post as if you have "only" $30,000 into the foal up to 60 days of age. (Don't get me wrong, $30,000 for a horse sounds like an incredible amount to me - at least 15 times what we have ever paid for a horse!)



                    I hadn't thought about insurance, but I sure hope you can insure your investment!

                    The mare we are thinking about preserving DNA from is a TB so there would be no registry, unless something like PHR (maybe??) But it is a good question as to how clones are registered or if they can be registered - mare or stallion. Wasn't Gem Twist a TB? I know his clone is NOT going to be registered with that old stick-in-the-mud Jockey Club.

                    Is it a lot cheaper to clone cattle? I keep wondering because there are a LOT of dairy cows cloned. I somehow just can't imagine a farmer going, "Oh, I have an extra $150,000 lying around, guess I'll clone my best milker, Bessie, this year & than, maybe they'll give me a deal on two, so next year it'll be Bossie." Of course, we can't get into a cattle cloning discussion because that isn't horsey! Just wondering about comparative costs & why cows would be a lot cheaper.
                    I don't have hard data in front of me, but I don't think cloning cattle is all that much cheaper than cloning a horse. Most dairy cloning is done to clone top, top bulls that for whatever reason don't produce enough semen compared to demand. I have also heard of cloning done to produce clones of dams who produce top bulls. The big demand in cloning dairy cattle is for pharmaceutical use in the transgenic market. Much easier to "splice" genes into one animal and then clone it, instead of trying to create multiple transgenic animals from the original method. For instance, cloned transgenic dairy cattle are being used to produce cows that excrete human insulin in the milk. Another area of transgenic cloned dairy cattle research is a company that is trying to use transgenic research to produce cows that excrete proteins found in human breast milk; thereby cornering (and revolutionizing) the infant formula market. The applications are endless.

                    As far as horses go, I think $150,000 is a heck of a bargain, when you look at the technology and expertise involved. If you are talking about cloning a top performing/breeding animal then you are probably getting off cheap. You often can't buy a top, top performer in any discipline for $150,000. Of course, if you are talking about cloning a beloved horse for sentimental reasons, and you have the money, then price probably isn't a factor in your decision.

                    I don't expect to see the cost come down anytime soon, as there aren't that many people/companies that can produce clones at this point. When more competition enters the market, that will bring the price down, much like it did with embryo transfers.
                    Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
                    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Evalee Hunter View Post
                      It sounds from the above post as if you have "only" $30,000 into the foal up to 60 days of age. (Don't get me wrong, $30,000 for a horse sounds like an incredible amount to me - at least 15 times what we have ever paid for a horse!)
                      We (Equine-Reproduction.com, LLC...well...Jos did anyway <smile>) recently co-hosted a program on cloning on Horse Radio. You can go to the home page of our website for a direct link to the interview - http://www.equine-reproduction.com

                      Also, Viagen particpated in the program. Many of the questions you are asking are covered on their website at: http://www.viagen.com/

                      The mare we are thinking about preserving DNA from is a TB so there would be no registry, unless something like PHR (maybe??) But it is a good question as to how clones are registered or if they can be registered - mare or stallion. Wasn't Gem Twist a TB? I know his clone is NOT going to be registered with that old stick-in-the-mud Jockey Club.
                      Currently, the only registry that will register clones is the Zangersheide. It is reported that the AQHA, are to discuss and review its current no-registration rule regarding clones at their 2009 convention. It has long been our view (Equine-Reproduction.com's) that registries as a whole - not just AQHA - should be prepared to register clones with the same registration number as the donor animal, plus a suffix (e.g. 123456-a, 123456-b etc.), while at the same time microchipping all the animals involved (donor and clone[s]). Any work involving a recordable performance (competition, breeding etc.) would then require reading of the microchip to confirm identity. This will allow tracking of the clones and their genetic input, which is good from all perspectives of the argument - whether you agree with cloning or not - as currently, in the case of stallions, there is no way to identify if a foal sired by a clone could have been sired by the donor animal, or vice-versa, as the DNA of the offspring will match both donor and clone in the parentage verification process.

                      Is it a lot cheaper to clone cattle? I keep wondering because there are a LOT of dairy cows cloned.
                      There is a different process used for the type of cloning you are probably referring to for cattle. It basically takes an embryo and "splits" it multiple times (GROSS oversimplification). Essentially, it's like making multiple twins of the same creature. There's a term for it but I can't for the life of me remember what it is. Perhaps someone here that breeds cattle would be able to answer that question. I'm just drawing a blank this evening.

                      The process offered by Viagen and Cryozootech is producing an animal from adult donor tissue, so you get a replica of the adult animal. The former procedure is less expensive, the latter runs $150,000 for horses, I have no idea the cost for cattle using either procedures nor how common either procedure is.

                      Just wondering about comparative costs & why cows would be a lot cheaper.
                      See above. I would imagine that the cost for cloning an adult bovine would be higher than the process of cloning from embryos. But, as we deal with EQUINE reproduction, I have absolutely no clue what the costs are for bovine cloning. It could very well be $150,000 and quite honestly, cattle breeders would be more likely to pay that for a phenomenal producing cow than horse breeders would <smile>. A good example of the cost difference is that sex sorting is quite common in the bovine industry, but at the cost of $5,000 for equine sex sorting, not too many horse breeders are taking advantage of the technology! Let's face it, there's more money in breeding cattle than there is in breeding horses. And, with cattle, we tend to eat those that don't perform well, thereby eliminating our mistakes.

                      Hope that helps!

                      Kathy St.Martin
                      Equine Reproduction Short Courses
                      http://www.equine-reproduction.com
                      Check out our Holiday Enrollment Special!
                      Last edited by Equine Reproduction; Nov. 12, 2008, 10:52 PM. Reason: Unfinished thoughts
                      Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
                      Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity

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                      • #12
                        This is really neither here nor there, but FWIW I did read in the most recent issue of the AQHA Journal that the NCHA (Natl. Cutting Horse Assoc.) has decided to allow clones to compete. For those not familiar, the NCHA is the sanctioning body for most cutting events and certainly for all the lucrative ones! They have always been open to any breed competing (although Quarter Horses dominate) and in fact don't require any registration papers, so grade horses are welcome. You do have to be a member of the organization to show at their events, much like USEF, but that is it. I would imagine that the NRHA (reining) would follow suit, which makes me wonder does USEF even have a policy regarding this issue? I would imagine that since with all of these organizations you can compete a grade horse there would be no way to prove that someone was competing a clone. Officially recognizing clones as able to compete simply opens the door to advertise the horse for what it truly is.
                        Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
                        https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Wow, thanks so much Equine Reproduction & Hillside H Ranch.

                          ER, I will definitely go to your website & link to that interview. I find the additional information on cloning very interesting. Has the embryo splitting technique been tried with horses? I would think it would be a useful adjunct to embryo transfer, since I have been told that there isn't any way to consistently, successfully superovulate mares.

                          HHR, thank you for the additional information about cloning of cattle. The cattle clones I know of were what most lay people call clones - replicas of the donor cow.

                          Thanks again to both of you for the additional information about this process.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Evalee Hunter View Post
                            Wow, thanks so much Equine Reproduction & Hillside H Ranch.

                            ER, I will definitely go to your website & link to that interview. I find the additional information on cloning very interesting. Has the embryo splitting technique been tried with horses?
                            Yes, but it's not as easy to do as it is in other mammals. Identical twins are rarely (never?) seen in the equine. It is hypothesized that the presence of “the capsule” between days 7-21 is a contributing cause to this by preventing the “hatching” of the embryo, which is seen in other species, thereby printing the "splitting" of the embryo into two animals. Professor Twink Allen in England has an entire herd of identical "twins" that he uses for research projects.

                            I would think it would be a useful adjunct to embryo transfer, since I have been told that there isn't any way to consistently, successfully superovulate mares.
                            eFSH was developed and can be used to superovulate mares. But, last time I heard it is on back order. The equine doesn't "superovulate" to the degree that cattle do. You might be able to get two, three and four ovulations, occasionally five, but never the sheer numbers seen in the bovine industry.

                            With regards to the NCHA putting an official stamp on allowing clones to compete, they pretty much were in a position that there was nothing they could do to prevent it. It's not a "registry" and by preventing a clone to compete, it would have opened them up for a lawsuit. By putting the "official" stamp on it, it just prevented problems in the future and let's face it, anyone wishing to compete a clone simply didn't need to disclose it. But I do think it's just a sign of things to come.

                            Kathy St.Martin
                            Equine Reproduction Short Courses
                            http://www.equine-reproduction.com
                            Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
                            Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity

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                            • #15
                              My thoughts on cloning etc...

                              Hi Everybody,
                              Interesting discussion and topic. We were fortunate enough to get a tour and lecture of Viagen while in Austin for the KWPN Annual meeting a couple of year's ago.....Fascinating concept and still an imperfect science (like most science!<G>). A couple of the things that I came away from the visit with are that all "cloned" foals must be treated as compromised or "ill" foals as they are definitely more fragile than most foals created by "traditional methods". This is probably why Viagen doesn't insist on full payment until the foals are 60 days of age....At that point, they are considered a "normal" risk.... In addition, it was interesting to find out that most cloned foals are marked significantly differently than the donors are....My impression was that if "they" could guarantee a true "perfect match" then more people would clone their horses.....A little surpising to me that the genes aren't the only determiners of markings....Probably backs up the research that the uteruine enviroment has something to do with the way offspring are marked....Very interesting in the case of ET's etc.....I think that I remember that markings have to do with the "temperature" of the uterine enviroment......Kathy or Hillside....do you remember this research?
                              Anyway, I have been asked if I would clone any of my horses.....Honestly, I am not sure I need to. My mares have provided me with such great daughters, of which I try to keep the best for my breeding program, that I have been able to better each generation most times......In addition, with the knowledge that the young cloned foals are more fragile, and with the costs involved, cloning has never really been a consideration for me.......

                              Looking forward to monitoring this thread as it continues....

                              Warmly,
                              Karin
                              Sporting Chance Farm/Dr Carlos and Karin Jimenez
                              Breeders of International Quality KWPN Horses
                              2006 KWPN-NA Breeders of the Year/2006 Res CH USDF DSHB Breeders Year
                              www.sportingchancefarm.com

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by karin@dutchbreeders@aol.com View Post
                                Anyway, I have been asked if I would clone any of my horses.....Honestly, I am not sure I need to. My mares have provided me with such great daughters, of which I try to keep the best for my breeding program, that I have been able to better each generation most times......In addition, with the knowledge that the young cloned foals are more fragile, and with the costs involved, cloning has never really been a consideration for me.
                                I agree. Cloning, to me anyway, seems like a step backwards in terms of the breeding evolution. And, I'm of the though that while you get the same genetic horse, you may not get the "same" horse. So many things are learned via experience and you will never be able to create identical experiences for the clones, thus the clone may not live up to expectation. How did horses get to where they are today, via breeding and new generations....seems silly to change the program at this point.
                                Proud Momma:

                                Imax - Fresstyle x Juventus x Rubinstein
                                2014 - Sister to IMAX (hopefully)

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by karin@dutchbreeders@aol.com View Post
                                  I think that I remember that markings have to do with the "temperature" of the uterine enviroment......Kathy or Hillside....do you remember this research?
                                  Gene expression. Just like you can have identical humans but one may have a mole and another may not. Fingerprints on identical twins are different, as well. Much of it is still somewhat speculative, but as more research is done, there will hopefully be more answers!

                                  Kathy St.Martin
                                  Equine Reproduction Short Courses
                                  http://www.equine-reproduction.com
                                  Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
                                  Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity

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                                  • #18
                                    Cloning, to me anyway, seems like a step backwards in terms of the breeding evolution.
                                    Just wanted to add that the stallion that I arranged tissue collection for had no entire male heirs and no frozen semen. He was also from a very rare outcross bloodline in a rare breed.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Amoroso View Post
                                      I agree. Cloning, to me anyway, seems like a step backwards in terms of the breeding evolution.
                                      It depends on what you are looking for and the purpose of the cloning. In the case of Smart Little Lena, while I don't see it as a backwards step, I don't see it as moving forward. Smart Little Lena was still alive and, I believe, frozen semen was available on him. So, nothing to be gained by cloning him, not once, not twice, but five times <scratching head>. Several of his clones were sold abroad, so perhaps it was just a matter of someone wanting to have a piece of the original.

                                      However, in animals like Scamper and Gem Twist, you're dealing with animals that have been gelded and no way to be able to utilize their genetic "input". By cloning those animals, it allows one the opportunity to essentially undo what was done - and who said you can't put the testicles back on once you take them off??

                                      And, I'm of the though that while you get the same genetic horse, you may not get the "same" horse.
                                      You may not get the same temperament, but you "will" get the same horse genetically. Nature vs nurture doesn't enter into the picture with regards to what is being produced. It's the genetic input that one is interested in. A clone's genetic athleticism and personality are what is being inherited.

                                      So many things are learned via experience and you will never be able to create identical experiences for the clones, thus the clone may not live up to expectation. How did horses get to where they are today, via breeding and new generations....seems silly to change the program at this point.
                                      Most clones are being produced in order to be able to take advantage of their genetic input, not their performance potential. Indeed most clones to date are not slated for the performance arena. They are destined for the breeding shed.

                                      Kathy St.Martin
                                      Equine Reproduction Short Courses
                                      http://www.equine-reproduction.com
                                      Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
                                      Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        OK everyone can put together their pennies for me to get mine and we can see how the nature vs nurture works out for my clone.

                                        OK Only joking but seriously had the market had not tanked I would be out here letting you guys know by next year.

                                        No my mare was not famous. I just lost her too soon from my broodmare band and my heart. I would like a registrable daughter in the worst way. As incorrect scientifically / genetically as it is I think I would view her clone more as her daughter than as her though.

                                        I think I remember the Oldenburg rep. Evelyn saying that as long as the genetics matched she did not see where there would be a problem registering her. It has been two years though so maybe their thoughts on this have changed and maybe she was not speaking for the entire Verband.

                                        Isn't there a Poetin clone we can watch and see what happens with the registration process?

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