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What stallions would you not want to see doubled up or line bred on a page

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  • #41
    Secretariat was linebred to Galopin (9.3%).
    TB stallion Spirit Lake
    Spirit Lake
    Spirit Lake pictures

    Comment


    • #42
      One of Tesio's premier principles is supposed to be that all the sires in his pedigrees either were or should have won English Triple Crown races based on their own careers. So he used a performance test to winnow out many sire lines. We don't have easy benchmarks for performance for sport horses.

      There is another interesting TB breeding theory that focuses on mares in the pedigrees of major race winners. It's called the "cluster mare" theory, and its author identifies and evaluates mares for their top level racing descendants within 3 generations. Author makes the point that sometimes breeding from full brothers and sisters to top level horses can be just as productive and much cheaper than breeding to the top level winners themselves. His proposition is that one should pack a pedigree with as many "cluster mares" as possible.

      One rather interesting factoid is that when American mares were introduced into the European TB after 1910 many, many good things happened. I personally speculate that Croucher and other non-GSB mares had something to do with this, but will note that the explosion of the prevalence of the C allele on the MSTN gene on chromosome 16 came about after many European sires were crossed with US mares.

      I have this book, and it makes good sense to me, given his arguments and his data.

      Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
      Paula -- There are TONS of breeders who have faithfully followed Tesio's methods over the years. Very few of them have produced the huge number of successful horses that he did.

      It is not "scientific", because it cannot be proven over and over again. In other words, the results should be predictable each and every time a certain "protocol" or method is used. For example, if you use a sex balanced version of linebreeding each time using good stock, you should get even better stock, right? Well, we all know that's not the way it works. And full siblings should be the same quality, since they have the same pedigree, right? Again, we all know it doesn't work that way. So even Tesio's methods do not meet the definition of "scientific" if you define the word this way.

      I agree that breeding is far more than just picking a stallion one likes. But if there was one absolute "method" to producing champions, I'm pretty sure everyone would be using it.

      I'd like to read Tom Reid's article about culling....how does he define "the bottom 15%?" Does he mean in term so being graded at inspections?

      Again, as far as Tesio's theory, I would like to know why one of Secretariat's full sister never amounted to anything in terms of race, although she did produce 2 stakes winners. So you have 3 horses with identical pedigrees. One (The Bride) was a total wash-out. Then Secretariat, who was one of the greatest racehorses that ever lived. Then another sister...Syria Something (I've forgotten) who was a very solid race mare. So why the difference in quality? After all, they have the same pedigrees....
      "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
      Thread killer Extraordinaire

      Comment


      • #43
        I like the Cluster mare theory! I had never noticed until pointed out here how many times lauries crusader has lady juror in his pedigree!

        Comment


        • #44
          "Breeder's Luck" - where do I subscribe for that?!

          As far as for Secretariat and his full siblings, I think talent has as much to do with its nature as its nurture sometimes - not to mention, siblings demonstrate many disparities, looks like racing talent may not have been one of them?
          AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

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          • #45
            I think when we think about genetic improvement n-values mean everything. Yes, it is true that full siblings will/can be very different phenotypically as well as have different sport career successes. However, if comparing three full siblings (as discussed with Secretariat and his sisters) that is only an n=3.

            If however, we look at population genetics breeders have made huge changes (for better or worse). For example, the Oldenburg horse used to be primarily a draft style horse a few decades ago used for farming. Through generations of selective breeding the phenotype and sport use of the breed has changed dramatically. Now 40 years ago a breeder might have made the same cross 5 times and the offspring been quite variable...some looking more drafty while others more refined. But look at that breeders line over generations of selective breeding and I would suspect quite a homogenous change.
            Read about my time at the Hannoveraner Verband Breeders Courses:
            http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2011.html
            http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2012.html

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            • #46
              Originally posted by beowulf View Post
              "Breeder's Luck" - where do I subscribe for that?!

              As far as for Secretariat and his full siblings, I think talent has as much to do with its nature as its nurture sometimes - not to mention, siblings demonstrate many disparities, looks like racing talent may not have been one of them?
              Gosh, I wish I knew...'cause I'd be buying me some of that too!

              Seriously, I believe. I'm sure you know that Penny Tweedy "lost" the coin toss between the owner of Bold Ruler; he got first pick of the Bold Ruler/SR foals and he picked "The Bride", meaning Tweedy got the next one by default...just happened to be Secretariat. THAT is some breeder's luck.

              As for racing talent...if you are breeding TBs for racing, that talent would be the benchmark to measure your success as a breeder; that and/or the ability for your stock to at least PRODUCE better runners.

              These are the reasons Tesio was breeding. So yes, training & soundness would play a part, but again, even as unstarted youngsters there should be some homozygousity (is that even a word?) between sibs.

              Again, there are many, many theories on breeding. Those might increase your odds of producing quality....they might not.

              Comment


              • #47
                Certainly an advantage of the racehorse is you get to see the success or failure of that breeding calculation within 3-4 years. You may be many years out to see the comparable maturity in sport to measure the sport horse.

                Comment


                • #48
                  of course we are dealing with genetics here and as genes come forward in clusters not every full sibling or mating is going to be the same. once the pedigree is right in its complexity you are meant to repeat the breeding a few times. Donnerhall was also the only one of his siblings to go on and be any good and there are many examples of this

                  no method is foolproof and there are of course risks with doing this. i am not saying this is a sure fire way to breed champions

                  but all my horses that have either intentionally or accidentally been bred along these principles have been a hell of a lot better than the others or alot of the outcrosses i have done

                  you can read tom reids articles on Morningside studs website - he is a regular contributor to this site as well, he has alot of breeding articles and there is some good stuff there as well

                  i dont think tons of sport horse breeders are doing this at all, i havent encountered any, only one on this forum and only one other here in Australia

                  much more common in TBs of course. i have also read tEsios book and it was awful, he doesnot let go any secrets, its what the pedigree experts have worked out that is the main part

                  these ideas are not mine and i am no expert but i feel at least i have something to work with now that i can understand

                  the proof is in the great horses - why they are great is there in their pedigrees

                  there is much scientific proof for these methods from the pedigree experts - Clive Harper, Ken Mclean etc - read their books if you want to see it for yourself

                  also speak to the author of the sport-horse-breeder site - her first 3 horses bred using these methods have been national champions

                  i have tons of people messaging me about all this, no one wants to speak out or show interest on the actual forum and why is this, because anyone expressing ideas usually gets shot down in flames

                  so again for all those people who are privately messaging me with pedigrees and questions - i am no expert here, you must go to the sport-horse-breeder site if you want to learn this work, and ask kathy the questions. this is how i learnt and i drove poor kathy mad with questions myself

                  by the way, that website has been up for years with all information open to anyone, and kathy said that she gets lots of hits on it every day but very rarely does someone like myself come along who bothers to put the work in and learn how to do it

                  so i really dont think people are going for these ideas much

                  Paulamc

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by omare View Post
                    Certainly an advantage of the racehorse is you get to see the success or failure of that breeding calculation within 3-4 years. You may be many years out to see the comparable maturity in sport to measure the sport horse.
                    That is for certain! You see within a few years what things nick well in racing and that is one thing I've always noted -- how many stallions have we known in the sport world that weren't discovered as potent sires until they were well past their prime? IIRC, Kyzteke mentioned a few in another post.
                    AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Racehorses may also be a better source for general breeding theories as you also have access to race statistics sliced and diced ever which way you would want along with the well documented bloodlines going back generations.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by paulamc View Post
                        of course we are dealing with genetics here and as genes come forward in clusters not every full sibling or mating is going to be the same. once the pedigree is right in its complexity you are meant to repeat the breeding a few times. Donnerhall was also the only one of his siblings to go on and be any good and there are many examples of this

                        no method is foolproof and there are of course risks with doing this. i am not saying this is a sure fire way to breed champions

                        but all my horses that have either intentionally or accidentally been bred along these principles have been a hell of a lot better than the others or alot of the outcrosses i have done

                        you can read tom reids articles on Morningside studs website - he is a regular contributor to this site as well, he has alot of breeding articles and there is some good stuff there as well

                        i dont think tons of sport horse breeders are doing this at all, i havent encountered any, only one on this forum and only one other here in Australia

                        much more common in TBs of course. i have also read tEsios book and it was awful, he doesnot let go any secrets, its what the pedigree experts have worked out that is the main part

                        these ideas are not mine and i am no expert but i feel at least i have something to work with now that i can understand

                        the proof is in the great horses - why they are great is there in their pedigrees

                        there is much scientific proof for these methods from the pedigree experts - Clive Harper, Ken Mclean etc - read their books if you want to see it for yourself

                        also speak to the author of the sport-horse-breeder site - her first 3 horses bred using these methods have been national champions

                        i have tons of people messaging me about all this, no one wants to speak out or show interest on the actual forum and why is this, because anyone expressing ideas usually gets shot down in flames

                        so again for all those people who are privately messaging me with pedigrees and questions - i am no expert here, you must go to the sport-horse-breeder site if you want to learn this work, and ask kathy the questions. this is how i learnt and i drove poor kathy mad with questions myself

                        by the way, that website has been up for years with all information open to anyone, and kathy said that she gets lots of hits on it every day but very rarely does someone like myself come along who bothers to put the work in and learn how to do it

                        so i really dont think people are going for these ideas much

                        Paulamc
                        What Sporthorse breeding site are you referring to?

                        Dog breeders do a lot of this breeding as well. You can see results a lot faster. This weekend I was talking to a breeder who suggested it is a great idea to breed a daughter to her father early on to see what you have lurking in the bloodlines. I'm not sure what I think about that. I don't know enough about in-breeding.
                        DIY Journey of Remodeling the Farmette: http://weownblackacre.blogspot.com/

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          I believe she is referring to the author of this:

                          http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/
                          AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            [QUOTE=beowulf;7165077]Yep, epigenetics - there is talk about it in the thread about Gem Twist as well.
                            [QUOTE]
                            Epigenetic markers are cleared at the gamete level, thus, they are not passed on. I don't see how sex-line breeding changes too much, i'd be careful and knowledgeable about any line breeding. I would never breed daughter to father intentionally. What are you going to do with that horse whose purpose is to magnify breeding issues? Why magnify genetic issues rather than find an appropriate outcross to produce an appropriate foal? Outcrosses pay off in the F1, F2 generation.
                            Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by paulamc View Post

                              no method is foolproof and there are of course risks with doing this. i am not saying this is a sure fire way to breed champions

                              but all my horses that have either intentionally or accidentally been bred along these principles have been a hell of a lot better than the others or alot of the outcrosses i have done

                              i dont think tons of sport horse breeders are doing this at all, i havent encountered any, only one on this forum and only one other here in Australia


                              the proof is in the great horses - why they are great is there in their pedigrees


                              so again for all those people who are privately messaging me with pedigrees and questions - i am no expert here, you must go to the sport-horse-breeder site if you want to learn this work, and ask kathy the questions. this is how i learnt and i drove poor kathy mad with questions myself

                              by the way, that website has been up for years with all information open to anyone, and kathy said that she gets lots of hits on it every day but very rarely does someone like myself come along who bothers to put the work in and learn how to do it

                              so i really dont think people are going for these ideas much

                              Paulamc
                              I think quite afew breeders are doing much of this, but probably not American WB breeders. They seem to just match stallion to mare and not look much deeper than that.

                              But as far as being able to "see greatness in the pedigree," I would suggest people are looking at that pedigree from hindsight. In other words, they see the pedigree of...say, Donnerhall...and point out this and that which (according to them) "predicts" his greatness.

                              Well, I'm betting that if someone showed experts a handful of pedigrees, without the name of the actual horse, those experts would (at best) have a 50-50 chance of saying if the horse was indeed "great" and then see if Reality matches up.

                              Paulamc -- I totally agree that making good breeding choices is far more complicated than just picking sire/dam. Linebreeding can bring amazing strength to a horse (and dog) and even breeding stallion to daughter or breeding full siblings can bring good results.

                              But as Viney pointed out, there are quite afew different "methods" promoted by various folks, and all of them can point out examples where their method worked.

                              It's interesting that so many people on this board...a BREEDER'S board...have never heard of Tesio...

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                If I remember correctly,line breeding and inbreeding are two different things.. Inbreeding carrying much greater risk of failure.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by Elles View Post
                                  Secretariat was linebred to Galopin (9.3%).
                                  Yes, Galopin was born in 1872, ONE HUNDRED YEARS before Secretariat. That is over25 generations. You really think those genes influenced him much? Even with 9%....
                                  Last edited by Kyzteke; Sep. 16, 2013, 07:09 AM. Reason: caught in time...

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by skydy View Post
                                    If I remember correctly,line breeding and inbreeding are two different things.. Inbreeding carrying much greater risk of failure.
                                    Well, that is where folks quibble. The old adage is "It's Linebreeding if it works, and Inbreeding if it doesn't"

                                    To the best of my knowledge, no one has actually defined one from the other.

                                    Personally, I consider it Inbreeding when two animals no more than 2 generations apart are bred; like grandfather to granddaughter, father to daughter, full siblings bred, etc. But that is just my personal definition, and I really don't even think of it as "inbreeding." It's just a word, after all...

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      I've read that there is a definition in TB land which is quite different. There, inbreeding is crossing within the first five generations and line breeding is crossing in the sixth and behind. But I personally think that most people would say linebreeding is when all the crosses are in the 3rd and back.
                                      "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                      Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                                        I've read that there is a definition in TB land which is quite different. There, inbreeding is crossing within the first five generations and line breeding is crossing in the sixth and behind. But I personally think that most people would say linebreeding is when all the crosses are in the 3rd and back.
                                        Really? Interesting.

                                        See, I would have never thought of it as "inbreeding" when it's that far back. I never bred TBs, but I did read BloodHorse for years and don't recall seeing this. Of course, that was years ago.

                                        Viney, have you seen this definition in several TB sources? Because when I hear a breeder talk about a TB pedigree, I've never heard them use the word "inbred." Can't blame them...most people have a negative reaction to the word...

                                        I agree with your "personal" definition of the word, however...

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          I found this on the Washington State TOBA site:
                                          Line Breeding: More remote than inbreeding, usually involving horses beyond the fourth generation. The difference in the two being “degree, not principle,” according to noted bloodstock expert Leon Rasmussen. Another definition is “a conservation program of inbreeding designed to concentrate the blood of a certain ancestor . . .”
                                          This is from the Five Cross Files Blood Horse Blog:
                                          Let's start with inbreeding.

                                          Right away, we need to clear up some definitions. The Thoroughbred breeder uses slightly different terminology than other livestock breeders. Inbreeding refers specifically to a duplication of a single ancestor within five generations. A concept that is related but distinct is line-breeding, which refers to duplication of a single ancestor within more than five generations. (Note that this definition differs significantly from how "linebreeding" is used in other livestock breeding.)

                                          Inbreeding and line-breeding both use generational notations. If Teddy appears in the fourth generation of a horse's sire and also the fifth generation of its dam, that horse is said to be "inbred 4 x 5 to Teddy." See an example here.

                                          The generations are always denoted according to the duplicated ancestor's appearance on the pedigree while regarding it vertically. (Huh?!?) Here's an example: start looking at Ikigai's pedigree from the top down. You'll see one cross of Mr. Prospector in the fourth generation (as sire of Gone West) ... another in the fifth generation (as sire of Fappiano) ... and another in the fourth generation (as sire of Conquistador Cielo). Therefore, Ikigai is inbred 4 x 5 x 4 to Mr. Prospector. (He's also inbred 4 x 5 to Reviewer and 5 x 5 to Arts and Letters.) (And as an aside, it's pretty fitting that Ikigai won the grade III Mr. Prospector Stakes!)
                                          - See more at: http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/scot/....HqDWCycx.dpuf
                                          http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/scot/...pedigrees.aspx

                                          I just found a very interesting and thought provoking article here:
                                          http://www.compusire.com/linebreedinbreed.html

                                          It goes into great detail why horse breeding is not like usual livestock breeding, and how and why inbreeding and linebreeding work--at least in the author's opinion.
                                          "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                          Thread killer Extraordinaire

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