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Choosing a registry... Help for those with exp w/SF, Holsteiner or BWP

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  • Choosing a registry... Help for those with exp w/SF, Holsteiner or BWP

    Recommendations for which registry you would choose for a possible stallion prospect that can be registered as either of the following:

    Selle Francais
    Holsteiner
    BWP

    Why? Pros and cons. Thanks in advance.

  • #2
    I'd go with BWP because (a) its book is relatively open so mares from other registries would not be discouraged from breeding to your stallion, and (b) it has a stable presence/organization here in the U.S., which I have the impression SF lacks. The last I looked (a few years ago), the Holsteiner Association was making rule changes in the direction of becoming a closed book breed which rubbed me the wrong way as a lover of quality US-bred TB mares, while the Selle Francaise organization in the US seemed to have disintegrated. At the same time, the BWP seemed to be growing in both size and reputation.
    http://www.tunnelsendfarm.com

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Originally posted by fish View Post
      I'd go with BWP because (a) its book is relatively open so mares from other registries would not be discouraged from breeding to your stallion, and (b) it has a stable presence/organization here in the U.S., which I have the impression SF lacks. The last I looked (a few years ago), the Holsteiner Association was making rule changes in the direction of becoming a closed book breed which rubbed me the wrong way as a lover of quality US-bred TB mares, while the Selle Francaise organization in the US seemed to have disintegrated. At the same time, the BWP seemed to be growing in both size and reputation.
      Well the SF registry is back up and running again.

      I was looking at the bwp website, (which is somewhat outdated), and I guess what rubs me the wrong way is the jumping criteria for young stallions. Sorry I won't be jumping my very large colt 1-1.10 at age 3!! It takes Warmbloods years and years to fully mature so I was a little disappointed in that. Oh and does anyone know the requirements for the ELITE status?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by JumperFyre View Post
        Well the SF registry is back up and running again.

        I was looking at the bwp website, (which is somewhat outdated), and I guess what rubs me the wrong way is the jumping criteria for young stallions. Sorry I won't be jumping my very large colt 1-1.10 at age 3!! It takes Warmbloods years and years to fully mature so I was a little disappointed in that. Oh and does anyone know the requirements for the ELITE status?
        Compare to European kuerings and the results (which, after all, we've anxiously breeding into for years). Fact is that stress that does not break, builds. No matter what the discipline, overly protected horses end up overly vulnerable. As my a-hole of a father used to say," it takes a lot of heat to make good steel."

        The last horse I bred to (Cunningham), easily jumped 5'2" as a coming 3 y.o., and went on to 2 USEF championships ca. 7-10 years later with no soundness problems whatever. Meanwhile, studies of racing TB's show that those started at 2 enjoy much better long term soundness than those delayed until 4. I think we all want to protect our babies while it is highly questionable whether it's good for them.
        http://www.tunnelsendfarm.com

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Originally posted by fish View Post
          Compare to European kuerings and the results (which, after all, we've anxiously breeding into for years). Fact is that stress that does not break, builds. No matter what the discipline, overly protected horses end up overly vulnerable. As my a-hole of a father used to say," it takes a lot of heat to make good steel."

          The last horse I bred to (Cunningham), easily jumped 5'2" as a coming 3 y.o., and went on to 2 USEF championships ca. 7-10 years later with no soundness problems whatever. Meanwhile, studies of racing TB's show that those started at 2 enjoy much better long term soundness than those delayed until 4. I think we all want to protect our babies while it is highly questionable whether it's good for them.
          I'm not saying I'm going to delay my colt until 4, but my plan is to start riding at 2.5-3 years (light work/dressage), then move on to small jumps at 3-3.5. That's not really overly protecting but letting him still grow & work at the same time.

          I'd love to see that study about the race horses. I despise the race horse industry for the very reason you mentioned (running babies until they break down).

          Comment


          • #6
            It depends, to a large extent, on your breeding goals. Holsteiner has the most closed book for a reason: Holsteiner breeders are more committed to maintaining their type than I would say the other two are. BWP and Selle Francais tend to be more inclusive registries that are more performance-based (although admittedly, I know less about ANSF-US than the other two since SF hasn't been operating for a while). They accept more mares/different bloodlines into their books (BWP especially) because their number one goal is to produce performance horses.

            Holsteiner breeders (feel free to jump in Tim, Reece...) are also committed to breeding top calibre show jumpers, but at the same time carefully preserving their motherlines and a particular type over the generations, which is what has made such a small studbook so successful at producing top horses. For this reason, I think many would agree that there might be a bit more "prestige" attached to Holsteiner.

            Presumably, if you are asking this question, you don't know a huge amount about what it means to be involved in any particular registry, ie. you may be interested in high level jumper breeding but not specifically committing to producing the Holsteiner type (not a criticism, just an observation). If this is true, I agree that you might want to go with a registry that is more accepting of different mare lines, if a wider mare base is your goal. You also might want to do more homework (if you haven't already) about strengths and weaknesses of each registry and its breeding goals, and how they fit with your own. Your goals (and indeed your particular stallion prospect himself) may fit better with one registry's standards than another's.

            Comment


            • #7
              I think you are asking who to register with. Some of the points brought up below do not apply to breeding stallions. You want a registry that is most credible and has some breeding impact in your country. You should go with the Holsteiners. Closed book has nothing to do with breeding approvals. You can later get breeding approvals for the others you mention and more. As a Holsteiner and with a proper pedigree your stallion would be eligible for inspection and possible breeding approval for at least 8 most significant registries in the US after you get Holsteiner approval so it leaves you options you may not have when registering with the others you mention.
              www.immunallusa.com
              www.rainbowequus.com Home of stallions that actually produced champion hunter, jumper and dressage offspring and now also champion eventers

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Ok good points everyone. I'm going to expand what I'm looking for. I would like to choose a registry that is open to quality thoroughbreds, because in the future I will be acquiring a few quality warmblood lookalike tbs for my future breeding program. I would prefer to have the foals inspected and the TB mares also inspected into a mare book. I heard SF doesn't do foal inspections, and Holsteiner may or may not accept quality thoroughbred dams. Do any of the registries I mentioned sound like they may fit me better. Also, if I did register Holsteiner, what other books would I automatically be accepted into?? Thanks again for the info.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Also, if I did register Holsteiner, what other books would I automatically be accepted into?? Thanks again for the info.
                  None , nor would it for any other you register with. They all have their own requirements.
                  TB acceptance has nothing to do with the registry of your colt, just with the approval status he has with the registries that accept him for breeding and also accept TB mares. The latter would be almost any popular registry so its a non issue.
                  www.immunallusa.com
                  www.rainbowequus.com Home of stallions that actually produced champion hunter, jumper and dressage offspring and now also champion eventers

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Edgar View Post
                    stallion would be eligible for inspection and possible breeding approval for at least 8 most significant registries in the US after you get Holsteiner approval so it leaves you options you may not have when registering with the others you mention.
                    What exactly do you mean by this then ??

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Holsteiner will carry the highest image to the breeders

                      SF is the registry of some of the best stallions (Baloubet du Rouet ranked #1, Quickstar #4, Quidam de Revel #5 and Diamant de Semilly #8)
                      http://www.wbfsh.org/GB/Rankings/Sir...ings/2012.aspx

                      BWP is a producer of very high quality jumpers mixing the blood of Holstein with the SF (a very good recipe for modern jumpers)
                      "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster, And treat those two imposters just the same"
                      Rudyard Kipling
                      Quartz Rouge

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        What I meant is that on paper your stallion could be accepted to be looked at during the licensing by the others and possibly licensed and approved. With the others that would be harder in some cases. Nothing much worth while in stallion approval is automatic
                        www.immunallusa.com
                        www.rainbowequus.com Home of stallions that actually produced champion hunter, jumper and dressage offspring and now also champion eventers

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I agree with the others that you should REGISTER your colt Holsteiner. Because it is a closed book it has a bit more prestige here in the US. When your colt is older and ready to be presented for approval, you can present him to ANY registry you choose, not just to Holsteiner. Holsteiner papers will give you the most options for your future program in my opinion. Good luck!
                          Destiny is not a matter of chance, it is a matter of choice; it is not a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be achieved. - William Jennings Bryan

                          http://www.halcyon-hill.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Edgar View Post
                            I think you are asking who to register with. Some of the points brought up below do not apply to breeding stallions. You want a registry that is most credible and has some breeding impact in your country. You should go with the Holsteiners. Closed book has nothing to do with breeding approvals. You can later get breeding approvals for the others you mention and more. As a Holsteiner and with a proper pedigree your stallion would be eligible for inspection and possible breeding approval for at least 8 most significant registries in the US after you get Holsteiner approval so it leaves you options you may not have when registering with the others you mention.
                            Good point, Edgar. I somehow assumed that the colt was already registered, and the OP was seeking advice on which registry to have him approved with. Since the OP presumably is currently not involved with any of the registries mentioned, I was also trying to highlight a few of the differences among them so the OP can start to make decisions about which registry/registries to get involved in and what her breeding goals are. As others have mentioned, it might be a good idea to start with one (Holsteiner) for both registration and potential approval and think about seeking approval with others later on.

                            As others mentioned, if you are only looking to stand a stallion, the more approvals you have, the better, as your stallion will be eligible to produce registered offspring with more than one registry (and thus, in theory, you will a larger base of mares interested in breeding to him). On the other hand, if you have a specific breeding goal in mind, eg. you want to breed Holsteiners because you are most interested in preserving/producing the Holsteiner type, you may not see it as necessary to seek multiple approvals.
                            Last edited by *Tradewind*; Jun. 10, 2013, 09:52 PM. Reason: restating suggestions "others" mentioned, not "I"...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Does the colt have a German stamm mother? If so, I'd go AHHA.
                              "Sometimes you just have to shut up and color."

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Just gonna clear up the TB part from the AHHA. They DO accept TB mares and they are either entered into the mare book or the main mare book. This makes my choice a little easier. I like what bwp has become and is doing, so when my stallion is AHHA approved I will probably have him bwp approved as well. Thanks for all your help guys!!

                                PS: more info on the stallion as he gets older but he is sired by one of the top 10 WBFSH show jumping sires, & out of a rare dam who has already produced an approved stallion!!

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by JumperFyre View Post
                                  Just gonna clear up the TB part from the AHHA. They DO accept TB mares and they are either entered into the mare book or the main mare book. This makes my choice a little easier. I like what bwp has become and is doing, so when my stallion is AHHA approved I will probably have him bwp approved as well. Thanks for all your help guys!!

                                  PS: more info on the stallion as he gets older but he is sired by one of the top 10 WBFSH show jumping sires, & out of a rare dam who has already produced an approved stallion!!
                                  while these bb's have some novel entertainment value, you really need to do your homework in close coordination with the respective studbook offices.

                                  while it has been stated that your boy may be eligible to be looked at by up to 8 different books, i do not see where in here his mother has been identified, other than an indication she may be a tb.

                                  the AHHA office will inform you of rules. one such rule is that the mother of an AHHA stallion candidate must herself AND ALSO HER MOTHER be registered Holsteiners.

                                  have grand plans. but do the homework the right way first, in order to avoid disappointment later.
                                  Hidden Pearl Farm

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Oh no the colts dam is Holsteiner, Sire is Selle Francais, hence the choice of different registries. The TB questions came into play for in the future because I want to start up a broodmare band with quality TBs to breed to my stallion.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by JumperFyre View Post
                                      Oh no the colts dam is Holsteiner, Sire is Selle Francais, hence the choice of different registries. The TB questions came into play for in the future because I want to start up a broodmare band with quality TBs to breed to my stallion.
                                      I think it's great that you're getting responses from so many points of view, especially since you seem to be approaching the question of "which registry?" from 2 different perspectives-- WB stallion owner + TB mare band owner yourself. As Edgar seems to imply, many/most stallion owners end up getting their stallions approved by several different registries in an effort to attract mare owners, each of which will have his/her own preferences. From that perspective it makes sense to select a registry with as much clout/prestige/whatever you want to call it as possible, hoping that it may ease the way into other approvals. From the mare perspective, things can look quite different: e.g., if one of your TB mares produces a spectacular colt, how would you feel if your chosen registry automatically rejects him as a stallion prospect because his dam and granddam were not both registered with them? As others have suggested, it's a good idea to do your homework to discover where the different registries' (and mare owners') goals do and do not accord with your own, as you decide where to seek approvals.
                                      Last edited by fish; Jun. 11, 2013, 11:22 AM.
                                      http://www.tunnelsendfarm.com

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Would it help to contact other breeders in each registry to see if they are happy with their registry? Get the " good and bad" from a personal standpoint?

                                        Comment

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