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Stallion owner question

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  • Stallion owner question

    Wondering if it is normal not to check your stallion before the first breeding. Do you just assume if he was fertile, good motility etc last year he will be this year? I was surprised in talking with a stallion owner that they had not checked him, but they would get numbers when he was collected.
    Last edited by horsetales; May. 22, 2013, 06:24 PM.
    Epona Farm
    Irish Draughts and Irish Draught Sport horses

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  • #2
    we always do a test collection before breeding season starts
    Cornerstone Equestrian
    Home of Amazing (Balou du Rouet/Voltaire) 2005 KWPN Stallion
    RPSI, KWPN reg B, and IHF nominated
    www.cornerstonefarmpa.com

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    • #3
      It's probably more "normal" than it should be. What it really is... is a lousy business and breeding management practice.

      The stallion owner OWES IT to the mareowner to have a breeding soundness exam done at the beginning of the season, and they owe it to the mareowner to evaluate every single collection. And if the stallion has a month between collections, they owe it to the mareowner to blow out that rusty load before they ship.

      I turned down one stallion manager who said he evaluates at the beginning of the season, but not every collection. What I said was "Oh, really?" and in my mind I went "NEXT!"
      "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin

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      • #4
        The stallions absolutely get collected and analyzed before the start of every breeding season and every single ejaculate is looked at raw and extended before it gets shipped to Mare Owners BUT ... I dont agree with this at all:

        And if the stallion has a month between collections, they owe it to the mareowner to blow out that rusty load before they ship.
        There is nothing "rusty" about semen that is in there if the stallion hasnt been collected for a month. The reserves are being replenished constantly so its not as if there is an "expiry date" or a "due date" on the semen and someone is getting "expired" swimmers ...
        www.TrueColoursFarm.com
        www.truecoloursproducts.com

        True Colours Farm on Facebook

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        • #5
          Always always always do a breeding soundness exam, whether you are the stallion owner or you are the mare owner looking for a stallion! NEVER assume an animal is fertile! Remember the racehorse, Cigar?!.......

          Comment


          • #6
            I do both a "clean out" (generally late February, I don't even look at it), then they get collected again and analyzed a week or so later.

            One of my stallions has LOUSY semen first collection, but after that he is back to his rocket-swimmers, the more he is collected the better it looks. With him, I do make sure he's collected regularly if I have clients needing shipments.... the others it doesn't seem to matter after the initial clean out at the start of the season whether they have a month off or a day off. We evaluate every collection after the clean out.
            Making Your Ambitions a Reality at Secret Ambition Stables.
            Quality Welsh Ponies and Welsh Crosses bred for sport
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            Section A and Section B Welsh Ponies at stud

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            • #7
              We always do a semen analysis after every collection with my school's two stallions.

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              • #8
                I wish all stallion owners were so honest. I bought a breeding to an aged colored TB years ago, and found out when I asked for a collection that he had not been tested in years, and the vet that did the collection said the semen was basically dead. We shipped counter to counter just in case there was something viable since the stallion was being exported and it was our only chance. Received worthless semen. Never got my money back and was even promised frozen from an up and coming colt, and never got that either...just a run-around for years. So never again will I buy a breeding without first confirming the current fertility of the stallion. Tough and expensive lesson.
                The Inverted Y
                Thoroughbred and Anglo Arabian Sporthorses
                2005 and 2007 USEF Breeder of the Year.
                www.allanglos.net

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                • #9
                  Here is something to ponder on the OTHER side of the equation ...

                  After shipping my own stallion for the last 4-5 years, and now shipping semen for a couple of other stallions, I find maybe 1 in every 20-25 collections actually gets looked at. The rest is simply stuck in the mare and thats it, and it doesnt seem to matter if we send direct to the client, direct to the farm, to a vet clinic or to a vet's office. It appears to be the same, right across North America. So - when I actually get emails like this one received yesterday:

                  Hi Donna,

                  The semen came this morning and looked GREAT! It warmed up to probably at least 65%, maybe even better. I bred the mare with BEAUTIFUL uterine edema and a 42mm follicle. I gave her sucrumate, and I'll breed with the second dose tomorrow. I'll keep you posted.
                  its SO nice to get any feedback, let alone something this detailed and positive!

                  Ive literally given up asking how the semen looked upon arrival as most Mare Owners dont know as the vet simply stuck it in the mare and then left.

                  Years ago a friend of mine tried for 2 years to get her mare in foal to a West Coast stallion to no avail. She had probably $7000.00 or more into her breeding venture by the time she changed vets and sent her to a breeding facility to monitor and breed. She was brand new to breeding. Didnt know correct protocols so relied 100% on industry professionals to do the right things for her and her mare

                  First shipment arrives, they stick some under the microscope before inseminating the mare and she said "Oh! What are you doing?" and was told they are checking the semen before using it and she said "Oh! My previous vet never did that"

                  Long story short. Everything was dead in there. Not 1 single swimmer was moving, so they called the SO to ask what extender was used, what concentration, etc to find that there was NO extender in there at all. That stallion was used locally only, this was the only client they shipped to, everything else was picked up and stuck in the mare within 30-60 minutes and she simply didnt know that extender was required. So - it was explained what was needed, next shipment arrives, everything is perfect, mare is confirmed in foal

                  So - my friend went back to Vet #1 quite upset and said "Why, for 2 years, did you never check the semen even once to see if there was a problem???" and he said "Because you paid me to inseminate your mare. Which I did. You never asked me to CHECK the semen. That would have been extra!"

                  She was REALLY upset by that time ...

                  So - throwing this question out there now - how many vets actually check the semen for your mare before inseminating her? Do they bring a microscope with them on farm calls? Or - do you have one and do you check it afterwards?

                  Great to ak the SO's to do it and hope they are being upfront with you, but how many MO's they go the one step further and insist it gets checked upon arrival too?

                  Curious to hear the consensus on this ...
                  www.TrueColoursFarm.com
                  www.truecoloursproducts.com

                  True Colours Farm on Facebook

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                  • #10
                    I'd venture to say that maybe only 30% of the mare owners' veterinarians checked semen I was shipping.

                    But, like you, I really appreciated it when they did.

                    That said, prior to standing my stallions we did serious semen evaluations, to make sure they had the "numbers", as well as testing how well their semen would hold in the Equitainer at 24, 48 and 72 hours. (i.e. how well would they ship).

                    All of mine met that criteria -- however, had I found they were sub par, they would not have stayed stallions.

                    Actually, every breeding season I'd start with a fresh semen evaluation -- as well as those shipping tests.

                    This is especially important as stallions age. Lucky, me over the years I did not see significant changes, but it really is incumbent on the stallion owner to know the status of their stallion's semen from year to year.
                    www.littlebullrun@aol.com See Little Bull Run's stallions at:
                    "Argosy" - YouTube and "Boleem" - YouTube
                    Boleem @ 1993 National Dressage Symposium - YouTube

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by TrueColours View Post
                      Here is something to ponder on the OTHER side of the equation ...

                      After shipping my own stallion for the last 4-5 years, and now shipping semen for a couple of other stallions, I find maybe 1 in every 20-25 collections actually gets looked at. The rest is simply stuck in the mare and thats it, and it doesnt seem to matter if we send direct to the client, direct to the farm, to a vet clinic or to a vet's office. It appears to be the same, right across North America. So - when I actually get emails like this one received yesterday:



                      its SO nice to get any feedback, let alone something this detailed and positive!

                      Ive literally given up asking how the semen looked upon arrival as most Mare Owners dont know as the vet simply stuck it in the mare and then left.

                      Years ago a friend of mine tried for 2 years to get her mare in foal to a West Coast stallion to no avail. She had probably $7000.00 or more into her breeding venture by the time she changed vets and sent her to a breeding facility to monitor and breed. She was brand new to breeding. Didnt know correct protocols so relied 100% on industry professionals to do the right things for her and her mare

                      First shipment arrives, they stick some under the microscope before inseminating the mare and she said "Oh! What are you doing?" and was told they are checking the semen before using it and she said "Oh! My previous vet never did that"

                      Long story short. Everything was dead in there. Not 1 single swimmer was moving, so they called the SO to ask what extender was used, what concentration, etc to find that there was NO extender in there at all. That stallion was used locally only, this was the only client they shipped to, everything else was picked up and stuck in the mare within 30-60 minutes and she simply didnt know that extender was required. So - it was explained what was needed, next shipment arrives, everything is perfect, mare is confirmed in foal

                      So - my friend went back to Vet #1 quite upset and said "Why, for 2 years, did you never check the semen even once to see if there was a problem???" and he said "Because you paid me to inseminate your mare. Which I did. You never asked me to CHECK the semen. That would have been extra!"

                      She was REALLY upset by that time ...

                      So - throwing this question out there now - how many vets actually check the semen for your mare before inseminating her? Do they bring a microscope with them on farm calls? Or - do you have one and do you check it afterwards?

                      Great to ak the SO's to do it and hope they are being upfront with you, but how many MO's they go the one step further and insist it gets checked upon arrival too?

                      Curious to hear the consensus on this ...

                      My vet (who's an ortho guy, not a repro specialist) looks at it every time. Interestingly enough, there have been cases of beautiful "looking" semen that did nothing in anything it was put into, and on the other hand, the stallion we used last year (twice) he looked at it and said it was "just average quality" but it worked first try every time and I think that stallion's "average looking" semen has something like an 85-90% first cycle conception rate.
                      The rebel in the grey shirt

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JWB View Post
                        My vet (who's an ortho guy, not a repro specialist) looks at it every time. Interestingly enough, there have been cases of beautiful "looking" semen that did nothing in anything it was put into, and on the other hand, the stallion we used last year (twice) he looked at it and said it was "just average quality" but it worked first try every time and I think that stallion's "average looking" semen has something like an 85-90% first cycle conception rate.

                        Yes, semen is only as good as the conception rates.
                        www.littlebullrun@aol.com See Little Bull Run's stallions at:
                        "Argosy" - YouTube and "Boleem" - YouTube
                        Boleem @ 1993 National Dressage Symposium - YouTube

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by TrueColours View Post
                          So - throwing this question out there now - how many vets actually check the semen for your mare before inseminating her? Do they bring a microscope with them on farm calls? Or - do you have one and do you check it afterwards?

                          Great to ak the SO's to do it and hope they are being upfront with you, but how many MO's they go the one step further and insist it gets checked upon arrival too?
                          My vet does check it. I've always gotten an analysis from the collection facility and my vet looks at it. I had a shipment years ago that was reportedly good at collection, but here it was basically dead. Don't know what happened, but saved me from inseminating useless semen and disappointment at the balck dot check. Lcukily whatever went wrong with #1 shipment didn't happen and success try #2
                          Epona Farm
                          Irish Draughts and Irish Draught Sport horses

                          Join us on Facebook

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                          • #14
                            fwiw, my vet - who does repro work as a large part of his practice - did check the semen - and the result is listed on my mares repro chart

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              My first time breeding this year, but my vet checked the semen once she got home to her equipment. The first shipment was not viable due to an Equitainer failure, but the second dose was perfect! I also got a report from their vet with the semen delivery.

                              PG check next Friday, fingers crossed.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                My vets look at every shipment. They were totally in love with Wild Dance's, my mare held on to her follicle and even with the semen 5 days old it still looked great. Worked great too since I now have a wonderful colt on the ground.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by TrueColours View Post
                                  So - throwing this question out there now - how many vets actually check the semen for your mare before inseminating her? Do they bring a microscope with them on farm calls? Or - do you have one and do you check it afterwards?

                                  Great to ak the SO's to do it and hope they are being upfront with you, but how many MO's they go the one step further and insist it gets checked upon arrival too?

                                  Curious to hear the consensus on this ...
                                  My vets do - both the frozen semen expert with the clinic and the ambulatory vet that does my regular breedings at home. The first thing my regular vet does is set up his microscope in my tack room.
                                  Mary Lou
                                  http://www.homeagainfarm.com

                                  https://www.facebook.com/HomeAgainFarmHanoverians

                                  Member OMGiH I loff my mares clique

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                                  • #18
                                    We look at every collection we ship and keep some to evaluate to see how it is keeping over several days.

                                    Kathy
                                    Majestic Gaits-Dutch Warmbloods,#1 USEF Dressage Sporthorse Breeder. #1 KWPN-NA Jumpers.Standing Navarone,Schroeder,Dante MG.VDL Frozen.

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