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Seeking advice for suitable sport horse eventing stallion in Western Canada please

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  • #21
    Icecapade is not a high percentage bet as a sport horse line. In the Dutch database with FEI results, he has two stallion sons who have produced eventers (no jumpers at FEI) who have done FEI events. Wild Again is not one of those. Since Wild Again is a 1980 model, we're talking a 33 year time span for his get to have gotten over into sport horse land. So it all depends on level you are breeding for. 3/4 of Smile Again's pedigree is perfectly fine. 4th generation and back is lovely. It's just Icecapade that gives me pause.

    Will Faudree had a horse with Chalk Hill (by Icecapade) as damsire in 2006. Horse was 3rd in a 2* with Beth Perkins in 2005, then went to Faudree where he was 38th in his first CIC 3* and then 22nd in his second. That was horse's last FEI competition, per the FEI website.

    The Icecapade son, Clever Trick, is the damsire of Leslie Law's current 3* horse, Zenith ISF. Clever Trick had a son, Tricky Creek Out of Battle Creek Girl (Galbreath breeding, His Majesty out of a Skylarking line mare) who was bred to a Raja Baba daughter and produced a confirmed 3* horse for a young Canadian event rider.

    That is ALL for Icecapade. Now I'm not saying the Dutch database can't be mistaken and there are other Icecapades doing FEI level competitions; but over the years, I've come to believe that that IN GENERAL Icecapade is a very low percentage line for sport horses. You can do better. You should do better if you are breeding.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire

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    • #22
      I agree with the suggestion of Lanciano. I think the fact that he has few offspring in sport has little to do with their quality but more to do with him being underused. He does not have attractive photos or videos to attract mare owners despite his very good pedigree and Canadian Warmblood and Trakehner approvals. I have seen some offspring and they seem to jump very well. He is in Alberta and I think does live cover.

      As an aside, I do not think you need to go straight to live cover after the frozen failure. I have had no success and spent a ton of money trying to get mares in foal with frozen but have never had the same mares not conceive first try fresh shipped. Personally, I would not do live cover with my mare, just seems to risky for me.

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      • #23
        Does anyone know what farm Songline is at? I can';t seem to find him online?
        "My ideal horse is the horse that I fall in love with again every morning when I see his face hanging over the stable door, looking for breakfast. " - Jim Wofford

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        • Original Poster

          #24
          Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
          Icecapade is not a high percentage bet as a sport horse line. In the Dutch database with FEI results, he has two stallion sons who have produced eventers (no jumpers at FEI) who have done FEI events. Wild Again is not one of those. Since Wild Again is a 1980 model, we're talking a 33 year time span for his get to have gotten over into sport horse land. So it all depends on level you are breeding for. 3/4 of Smile Again's pedigree is perfectly fine. 4th generation and back is lovely. It's just Icecapade that gives me pause.

          Will Faudree had a horse with Chalk Hill (by Icecapade) as damsire in 2006. Horse was 3rd in a 2* with Beth Perkins in 2005, then went to Faudree where he was 38th in his first CIC 3* and then 22nd in his second. That was horse's last FEI competition, per the FEI website.

          The Icecapade son, Clever Trick, is the damsire of Leslie Law's current 3* horse, Zenith ISF. Clever Trick had a son, Tricky Creek Out of Battle Creek Girl (Galbreath breeding, His Majesty out of a Skylarking line mare) who was bred to a Raja Baba daughter and produced a confirmed 3* horse for a young Canadian event rider.

          That is ALL for Icecapade. Now I'm not saying the Dutch database can't be mistaken and there are other Icecapades doing FEI level competitions; but over the years, I've come to believe that that IN GENERAL Icecapade is a very low percentage line for sport horses. You can do better. You should do better if you are breeding.
          Vineyridge,

          You do have access to a useful database. Is it open to everyone?

          I agree that it is very important to look at the bloodlines for breeding. That is why I had decided on Weston Justice out of the UK and to go the frozen AI route, he has a very strong sire and dam line for eventing that was very appealing to me. Unfortunately, this has not worked out and now I am looking for the best TB option for my mare in the Alberta area.

          I do not want to be at all down on the following stallions as they have clearly been bred for racing and not sport. However, this is the selection that is within the area that I can transport her to. I believe that the following are the options local to me:

          Katef: http://www.pedigreequery.com/khatef

          Smile Again: http://www.pedigreequery.com/smile+again

          Hero’s Tribute: http://www.pedigreequery.com/heros+tribute

          Pellegrino: http://www.pedigreequery.com/pellegrino3

          Tinner’s Secret: http://www.pedigreequery.com/tinners+secret

          Lanciano: http://www.pedigreequery.com/lanciano

          There are a lot of warmblood stallions in this area but it is very difficult in many cases to identify how much TB blood they have in their pedigree and I am looking for at least 75%. I am debating on if I should even still try to breed her as I do really want a nice sport horse foal and not just any old foal or try to identify a possible suitable sire locally and breed her and then possibly look to use the last dose I have from Weston Justice next Spring after she has been bred once.

          I have seen some Lanciano offspring and through evaluation for eventing they were long in the pastures and canon bone to be believed to be suitable for long-term soundness in eventing and I guess this has made me shy of him.

          It really is not working out the way I had hoped but that is horse breeding for you as it seems to turn out!

          Comment


          • #25
            Have you had a look at what Sandra Donnelly has been breeding to? She's been pretty successful in breeding and then riding her horses to upper levels. IIRC, they are WBs but I have no idea as to % of blood.
            Blugal

            You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng

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            • #26
              It's called www.equestrian-database.com You register and it's free for the first 30 days, IIRC. Then you pay for a subscription. I can't remember exactly, but a year is either 30 euros or 15 euros. Oftentimes, once I find a horse that looks interesting, I'll go to the FEI database to check on the results. Many times there are more FEI competitions than show up in the database.

              As far as pedigrees are concerned, I like the Brazilian Pelligrino's quite a lot. Pellegrino's dam line is all South American, so not as many famous horses for sport. But his sire's damline is exemplary, as is his sire's sire. I especially like the fact that he won a stakes when he was eight. Won each year up to then also.

              Hero's Tribute has a lovely pedigree as does Lanciano.

              Khatef is by Phone Trick, and that line is a complete bust for sport, as far as I've been able to discover.

              Tinner's Secret is tail male Secretariat which is decent, not great; but his damsire is very good. He's got a bit too much Nearctic for my personal taste.

              Originally posted by JB Eventer View Post
              Vineyridge,

              You do have access to a useful database. Is it open to everyone?

              I agree that it is very important to look at the bloodlines for breeding. That is why I had decided on Weston Justice out of the UK and to go the frozen AI route, he has a very strong sire and dam line for eventing that was very appealing to me. Unfortunately, this has not worked out and now I am looking for the best TB option for my mare in the Alberta area.

              I do not want to be at all down on the following stallions as they have clearly been bred for racing and not sport. However, this is the selection that is within the area that I can transport her to. I believe that the following are the options local to me:

              Katef: http://www.pedigreequery.com/khatef

              Smile Again: http://www.pedigreequery.com/smile+again

              Hero’s Tribute: http://www.pedigreequery.com/heros+tribute

              Pellegrino: http://www.pedigreequery.com/pellegrino3

              Tinner’s Secret: http://www.pedigreequery.com/tinners+secret

              Lanciano: http://www.pedigreequery.com/lanciano

              There are a lot of warmblood stallions in this area but it is very difficult in many cases to identify how much TB blood they have in their pedigree and I am looking for at least 75%. I am debating on if I should even still try to breed her as I do really want a nice sport horse foal and not just any old foal or try to identify a possible suitable sire locally and breed her and then possibly look to use the last dose I have from Weston Justice next Spring after she has been bred once.

              I have seen some Lanciano offspring and through evaluation for eventing they were long in the pastures and canon bone to be believed to be suitable for long-term soundness in eventing and I guess this has made me shy of him.

              It really is not working out the way I had hoped but that is horse breeding for you as it seems to turn out!
              Last edited by vineyridge; May. 13, 2013, 10:54 PM.
              "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
              Thread killer Extraordinaire

              Comment


              • #27
                Hero's Tribute looks lovely and love the Damascus influence.

                What about Gervantus if you go warmblood? Has produced an olympic eventer and has quite a bit of TB on the bottom side. Not sure of percentage, I never quite understand the proper way to calculate, which generation to do it and all of that.

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                • #28
                  To be honest you should not have an expensive vet bill for doing fresh cooled. Basically, you just need to monitor your mare's heat cycles and when you know she has been in a good heat for a few days have your vet US her and then usually you only need one or two ultrasounds. The breeding part is easy and shouldn't cost much. I understand the worry after the frozen issue but if you have only ever used one stallion frozen it may all just be a case of a stallion that doesn't freeze well, not that your mare needs live cover!
                  www.svhanoverians.com

                  "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

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                  • #29
                    What about Gervantus if you go warmblood? Has produced an olympic eventer and has quite a bit of TB on the bottom side. Not sure of percentage, I never quite understand the proper way to calculate, which generation to do it and all of that.

                    He has produced some nice offspring (and I don't think he is getting very many good mares) so could be one to look at.
                    www.svhanoverians.com

                    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      I have never seen any of his offspring, but I've always thought Kingston would be an interesting potential event sire. He is by the TB, Martin's Worry, and his dam is close to 40% TB, making Kingston close to 70% TB himself. I know he has a few offspring eventing up to Prelim.

                      http://canadianwarmbloods.com/stalli...orseid=1000039

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                      • Original Poster

                        #31
                        Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                        It's called www.equestrian-database.com You register and it's free for the first 30 days, IIRC. Then you pay for a subscription. I can't remember exactly, but a year is either 30 euros or 15 euros. Oftentimes, once I find a horse that looks interesting, I'll go to the FEI database to check on the results. Many times there are more FEI competitions than show up in the database.

                        As far as pedigrees are concerned, I like the Brazilian Pelligrino's quite a lot. Pellegrino's dam line is all South American, so not as many famous horses for sport. But his sire's damline is exemplary, as is his sire's sire. I especially like the fact that he won a stakes when he was eight. Won each year up to then also.

                        Hero's Tribute has a lovely pedigree as does Lanciano.

                        Khatef is by Phone Trick, and that line is a complete bust for sport, as far as I've been able to discover.

                        Tinner's Secret is tail male Secretariat which is decent, not great; but his damsire is very good. He's got a bit too much Nearctic for my personal taste.
                        I am hoping to go and look at Hero's Tribute and Pelligrino soon. However, I am starting to realize that a lot of breeders do not allow live cover regardless. So if this turns out to be the case then I might need to bite the bullet and try fresh and AI. This being the case, the stallion Rather Well looks like a possible candidate but I am waiting to hear on his availability and pricing for fresh. I have seen some nice WB event stallions but with my mare I need to lighten the package and will still need to focus on more TB blood.

                        I did look at Sandra Donnelly's horse breeding as suggested but I think her horses are more WB focus. Also her main horse is described to have been quite a stubborn handful as a youngster. As I am non-pro event rider I would prefer to aim for something hopefully more straightforward to deal with!

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #32
                          Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                          It's called www.equestrian-database.com You register and it's free for the first 30 days, IIRC. Then you pay for a subscription. I can't remember exactly, but a year is either 30 euros or 15 euros. Oftentimes, once I find a horse that looks interesting, I'll go to the FEI database to check on the results. Many times there are more FEI competitions than show up in the database.

                          As far as pedigrees are concerned, I like the Brazilian Pelligrino's quite a lot. Pellegrino's dam line is all South American, so not as many famous horses for sport. But his sire's damline is exemplary, as is his sire's sire. I especially like the fact that he won a stakes when he was eight. Won each year up to then also.

                          Hero's Tribute has a lovely pedigree as does Lanciano.

                          Khatef is by Phone Trick, and that line is a complete bust for sport, as far as I've been able to discover.

                          Tinner's Secret is tail male Secretariat which is decent, not great; but his damsire is very good. He's got a bit too much Nearctic for my personal taste.
                          I am hoping to go and look at Hero's Tribute and Pelligrino soon. However, I am starting to realize that a lot of breeders do not allow live cover regardless. So if this turns out to be the case then I might need to bite the bullet and try fresh and AI. This being the case, the stallion Rather Well looks like a possible candidate but I am waiting to hear on his availability and pricing for fresh. I have seen some nice WB event stallions but with my mare I need to lighten the package and will still need to focus on more TB blood.

                          I did look at Sandra Donnelly's horse breeding as suggested but I think her horses are more WB focus. Also her main horse is described to have been quite a stubborn handful as a youngster. As I am non-pro event rider I would prefer to aim for something hopefully more straightforward to deal with!

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                          • #33
                            Originally posted by Vic_007 View Post
                            Does anyone know what farm Songline is at? I can';t seem to find him online?
                            call the owner - Schonberg Farm - 1 416 697 4127 - $1700 lfg
                            www.juniperridgeranch.us
                            Visit us on Facebook!

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                            • #34
                              Originally posted by JB Eventer View Post
                              I am hoping to go and look at Hero's Tribute and Pelligrino soon. However, I am starting to realize that a lot of breeders do not allow live cover regardless. So if this turns out to be the case then I might need to bite the bullet and try fresh and AI. This being the case, the stallion Rather Well looks like a possible candidate but I am waiting to hear on his availability and pricing for fresh. I have seen some nice WB event stallions but with my mare I need to lighten the package and will still need to focus on more TB blood.

                              I did look at Sandra Donnelly's horse breeding as suggested but I think her horses are more WB focus. Also her main horse is described to have been quite a stubborn handful as a youngster. As I am non-pro event rider I would prefer to aim for something hopefully more straightforward to deal with!
                              I would encourage you to give Persian Star (full TB) another look. Clinton is not that far a drive from AB - there are often trailers going back and forth, and I bet Nancy would pick up from Little Fort if needed. He is live cover. I have only ridden one of his offspring, a full TB with a nice temperament with a phenomenal jump - but have seen many others.
                              Blugal

                              You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng

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                              • #35
                                I think someone already mentioned Dreamscape Farms in BC, but wanted to point out that their stallion Sagnol sired the approved stallion Sandro's Star, who aced the cross-country portion of his 70 day stallion test and is now in Germany pursuing an eventing career. Sandro's Star is from a TB mare - there is a nice story about him here - http://oldenburghorse.net/oh/news/ne...dros-star.html . So, although Sagnol isn't TB or have a high percentage of TB blood, he might be worth thinking about for your mare if you decide to try fresh cooled semen in lieu of live cover.

                                But if you decide on fresh cooled, you could also go with your first choice, A Fine Romance.

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                                • #36
                                  Persian Star has a lovely, lovely old time TB pedigree for sport. He's got many very well proved lines. Certainly worth consideration just on his paper.
                                  http://www.pedigreequery.com/persian+star

                                  No Northern Dancer or Mr. P.
                                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                  Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                                  • #37
                                    There's also Novalis at Dreamscape - he's put eventers on the ground.
                                    "Adulthood? You're playing with ponies. That is, like, every 9 year old girl's dream. Adulthood?? You're rocking the HELL out of grade 6, girl."

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