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  • #41
    Originally posted by Kerole View Post
    PatO - My foals are bred to be sold. The sort of people wanting to buy my foals/yearlings are are top level riders or those wishing to be a top level rider, and those looking for a future broodmare. These people want as much awesome blood up front as possible. I know and you know that there are many good performers out there with less than stellar pedigrees, but I would find it much much more difficult to market this type of foal than one with awesome bloodlines.


    It might not be scoff worthy but it is still a less desirable pedigree than Furstenball x Quaterback say, or Furstenball x Sandro Hit, or Furstenball x Belissimo M, or Furstenball x ... see what I'm trying to say? The pedigree of the golden mare might by nice enough but it is still not as arresting as the non-golden options that are available.
    Forgive me but I question your logic. Is it not true that Mistral Hojiris (Alf) is by Michellino and it is well known that Michellino has produced many internationally successful FEI dressage horses is it not ?

    I'll take a sire any day that has produced both inspection and licensing champions AND successful upper lvl progeny any day over ones that have yet to complete both tasks.
    Last edited by Lynnwood; May. 17, 2013, 12:43 PM.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"


    • #42
      Originally posted by Lynnwood View Post
      NO NO their Voltaire son Colaire was gelded , I think your thinking of Claim to Fame <3 who is still very much NOT gelded.
      Wow, I totally misread that statement LOLOL And totally brain farted the actual stallion I was thinking of. Please just ignore me LOL Yes, I knew Colaire was gelded
      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET


      • #43
        deleted as double
        Last edited by aurum; May. 17, 2013, 01:12 PM.
        Exceptional colored German WBs, TBs and Arabians


        • #44
          I actually have a really super foal by Callaho's Benicio and it is a golden Palomino boy, but since I have been breeding for 30 years with only approved stallions of good pedigrees, all of my mares are also of very good quality. I think it is very important that the mares are of very good quality and not of lower or mediocre qualtiy or pedigree just because of the color.
          Exceptional colored German WBs, TBs and Arabians


          • #45
            Originally posted by TrueColours View Post

            Another mare that is being bred to my stallion this year is the dam of an FEI level dressage horse that competed at the Pan Am Games.
            Another mare is an imported Elite Hanoverian mare that was long (or maybe short???) listed for our Canadian dressage team.
            3 separate very educated owners.
            Just to clarify any potential misunderstanding,
            while I am not certain which mare the poster is alluding to, IF by the "dam of an FEI level dressage horse that competed at the Pan Am Games" the poster is referring to the A Fine Romance daughter who is the dam of Viva's Veroveraar, it should be noted that she is not now owned by the breeders of the FEI level dressage horse and Pan Am competitor.
            A Fine Romance. April 1991 - June 2016. Loved forever.


            • #46
              Originally posted by Kerole View Post
              It might not be scoff worthy but it is still a less desirable pedigree than Furstenball x Quaterback say, or Furstenball x Sandro Hit, or Furstenball x Belissimo M, or Furstenball x ... see what I'm trying to say? The pedigree of the golden mare might by nice enough but it is still not as arresting as the non-golden options that are available.

              I guess it depends on how much the buyer knows about bloodlines. If they were a serious and knowledgable dressage enthusiast and had an avid interest in bloodlines they would recognise that Michellino is an established progenitor of International Grand Prix Dressage horses who's progeny are consistently placed on the WBFSH leader board with two of his progeny currently in the top 25 WBFSH rankings, placed 8th in the WBFSH dressage sire rankings in 2012, and sire of Olympic Team Gold medalist Mistral Hojris, which is something we cannot say about Quaterback, Sandro Hit or Belissimo yet.

              In addition Michelino's dam sire Ulft played an important part in the success of Valegro, Uthopia and Ferro. Michellino is hardly second rate. He is right up there with the best of the legendary dressage stallions.
              Last edited by L&L; May. 18, 2013, 06:19 AM.


              • #47
                I can see there are new posts today on this thread, via the forum listing, but I can't see them when I come in, so I'm just making a post to see if that will get them to show up. Just ignore me
                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET


                • #48
                  dangit!! I saw earlier that Fred posted, then that L&L (I think) posted, but nothing
                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET


                  • #49
                    Well, NOW the posts from yesterday are showing up. Whew
                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET


                    • #50
                      I'm reading Kerole posts to mean that not all coloured sport horses are created equal. While there are some really nicely bred ones now, that has not always been the case. Just look back at the threads over the years and all the complaints that colour breeders don't care about bloodlines/performance! And having read those, and seen the horses, I have to agree that there have been many not-so-nice coloured mares bred just in the hopes of getting that oh-so-coveted double dilute.

                      So yes, there ARE some nice ones now, but there are still lots that aren't!

                      PS: love Cream On Top!


                      • #51
                        And not all bay or chestnut or black or brown sporthorses are created equal Never have been, never will be.

                        The colored ones, whether spotted or diluted, have a huge disadvantage currently because they have been shunned for having the stereotype of "must have been some Paint blood" and therefore never suitable, even if the animal in front of you is a nice one. So sadly, getting color into top notch horses has indeed had to start with animals that, all else equal, would not have otherwise been bred, but the best of those WERE bred, and over generations they are getting better and better.

                        There ARE colored mares and stallions now (more mares than stallions) both dilute and spotted that now have really good bloodlines on both top and bottom, so while they are still climbing the ladder, and will always be in smaller numbers than regular colors, some of the ones out there now do indeed have desirable blood not just on one side, but both
                        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET


                        • #52
                          Had this discussion with the daughter last night actually. We're finally getting close to being in the right spot to buy her a horse of her own. One of the topics was the reality of us not being able to buy her a made horse but of buying in utero a custom foal. Asked her what she wanted and she said a palomino Donnerhall. There are 3 Donnerhall lined WBs in the barn currently and she adores all three. I get the attraction to the pale color and I've seen a couple that interest me. My caveat and this may be a huge one is I want one that has the conformation, temperament, and ability to go upper level . Maybe not Olympics but a solid GP horse. BORN IN THE USA. Wrap it in a cream colored coat and I'm sold. So yes there is an interest and I have reached out to a couple of breeders to see if any of them are willing to try it.
                          Adoring fan of A Fine Romance
                          Originally Posted by alicen:
                          What serious breeder would think that a horse at that performance level is push button? Even so, that's still a lot of buttons to push.


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by alexandra View Post
                            Is there a market for a dilute colored WB foal/horse (palomino or buckskin) with OLD brand out of an SPS mare with very good scores, show record (in hand and dressage) plus good known bloodlines ?
                            We debate over that a bit right now with breeding decisions ...
                            Yes there is always a market for a quality foal of colour.

                            The crowd favourite was the palomino coloured Nordstern, a Quaterback son out of a Czech/Zweibruchen dam line selling for 105,000 euro to a dressage stable in Schleswig/Holstein.




                            • #54
                              I can only reiterate what aurum said. A good horse that is attractively colored will be likely to attract even more people. A soso one that is only attractively colored - maybe not.
                              Since I know Alexandra's mares well I can say I look very forward to seeing the result of this cross. But as usual with breeding live animals the first challenge is to get to the black dot stage and the second to get to the healthy foal stage. Hope we'll discuss the result in 11 months from now I love her 'Little Paulchen' and I quite like the idea of her having a golden one of any kind next year even if it would mean going with another registry than the mares.
                              Froh zu sein bedarf es wenig...


                              • #55
                                I think I am being misunderstood. No one's saying Michelino is second rate. I am just saying that here in NZ where the market for this type of horse is pretty small, many of the buyers are more inclined to like the latest flash stallion. Would they turn down a really nice Furstenball x Michelino foal? Defininately not! But all else being equal, they will gravitate to the more currently fashionable bloodlines. Remember we in NZ are relatively new to this and have quite a bit of maturing to do!

                                Also, there are not many Alino Queens out there. She is a rarity amongst dilute mares. When Alexandra brought the topic up she was considering using a dilute stallion over a fancy bred non-dilute mare. My train of thought followed hers. As there is nothing close to an Alino Queen here in NZ we would have to use a dilute stallion over a fancy bred mare and start from there.


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by Kerole View Post
                                  As there is nothing close to an Alino Queen here in NZ we would have to use a dilute stallion over a fancy bred mare and start from there.
                                  And thats the best way to start IMHO

                                  Nothing better than a stellar mare to commence a breeding program. By selecting mares that have a descendance of proven upper level competition horses in her feather tail line, a mare line that not only has recognisable and desirable bloodlines but one that has successfully produced upper level and grand Prix horses, just as you would if aiming at producing a non coloured foal for high level sport.

                                  If you then produce a quality coloured filly from that stellar mare line you can then breed her to a non coloured performance stallion with the aim of infusing the desirable elements that are needed for improvement for the next generation - with the ultimate aim of producing colourful horses that have impecable breeding, movement, conformation, phenotype, work ethic and temperament, as well as proven performance lineage on both the sire and dam line.

                                  I guess when you are pro active within the colour sports horse industry your much more familiar with what is already available, what is performing at the upper levels, which stallions and mares have credible performance bloodlines and which of those are producing performance horses themselves. You tend to pay very close attention to the breeding stock that tick all the boxes, not just the pretty colour, just as you would if you were selecting a solid stallion for your mare. I think those are the fundemental differences of those breeding colour for colours sake and those breeding for performance.

                                  Sometimes you can't have it all, so things have to be reassessed with each generation.

                                  It just takes time.


                                  • #57
                                    Thanks L&L, we seem to be on the same page. I think I am not being very clear and am at risk of coming across as a numpty.


                                    • Original Poster

                                      Well: even if I am interested in color it was perfectly clear to me that it could only be a stallion that is fully HBI Book (WB) approved and has bloodlines that are of certain known and valued lineage.

                                      Sorry if I am offending that expansive QB, but that is not what I wanted.

                                      Bloodlines I do not know, coming from some other european country from which it is difficult to obtain info due to language barrier.
                                      And I know also from the past that there was cheating in some or the other stallion test there (As in the horse was not even there). So no idea ow valid the information would be that I obtain.
                                      Neither would I buy a colored mare form there to start clor breeding nor would I use a stallion with such sort of lineage that is not approved and stallion tested for German Stallion book I.
                                      I am not coming from the side I want to breed colored horse no matter what, I cam from whom would I want to breed to for a foal that has a high chance of being sold and is somewhat different from my stock.
                                      This means that I am most certainly not throwing all my other ideas, rules or thoughts about breeding away. I know that the stallion I am using is not a fancy Benicio, Ampere, Jazz, Sandro Hit. But I checked the things that are very important to me and where I won't compromise. There were all so that I can easily live with that (so to say). I am quite certain what this mare throws into the equaition. I know her damline very well from personal sight back 5 Generations. I know what they can produce as this family belongs to a friend and I saw all foals from them since 1995. My mare had two foals already and I know her inside out from riding her. The eldest is in the hands of a Grand Prix Rider in Germany.

                                      As Kareen said first comes the black dot than the healthy foal, than we look at conformation, color and movement. We are already a step closer - she is inseminated ;-)

                                      By the way: She is Donnerhall lineage...
                                      I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
                                      2017: March: Filly by Lissaro - SPS Don Frederico - SPS Prince Thatch
                                      May: Finnigan - Sandro Hit - SPS Rouletto


                                      • #59
                                        Though I've never bred for color, I love buckskin! Palomino, meh, not my thing, but buckskin is a gorgeous, nuanced color. I have a gray I dearly love, but I wouldn't go out of my way to own another.

                                        A well-bred athlete who is easy to deal with will always sell, no matter the color.
                                        Phoenix Farm ~ Breeding-Training-Sales
                                        Eventing, Dressage, Young Horses
                                        Check out my new blog: http://califcountrymom.blogspot.com


                                        • #60
                                          Phoenix Farm
                                          For the buckskin lovers a stallion with very good pedigree:
                                          He will be standing at stud in 2014 at a very reputable dressage and AI center to go dressage and to be available at stud.
                                          Exceptional colored German WBs, TBs and Arabians