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Totally naive question: do any WB books take Morgans?

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  • Totally naive question: do any WB books take Morgans?

    As the subject line says, do any WB registries accept Morgans or Morgan crosses (say Morgan x TB)? I'm not a breeder, just asking for a friend. We already know that AWS does, and possibly AWR. Any others? And does it matter if the horse is a stallion or a mare?
    You have to have experiences to gain experience.

    1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

  • #2
    I'm almost certain the answer is no. Well, no reputable one, anyway.
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    • #3
      RPSI and Old NA/ISR will approve Morgan mares for breeding (or almost any mare for breeding - their mare requirements are similar to AWS and AWR, including using different books), thus their offspring would be registerable if bred to an approved stallion of those registries. Old NA puts them in the ISR books, but they still compete for Oldenburg USDF awards, etc. Neither will approve a stallion of those lines. I'm a bit puzzled as to why it is OK for the mare to be of "non-Warmblood" lines, but not the stallion.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by MysticOakRanch View Post
        RPSI and Old NA/ISR will approve Morgan mares for breeding (or almost any mare for breeding - their mare requirements are similar to AWS and AWR, including using different books), thus their offspring would be registerable if bred to an approved stallion of those registries. Old NA puts them in the ISR books, but they still compete for Oldenburg USDF awards, etc. Neither will approve a stallion of those lines. I'm a bit puzzled as to why it is OK for the mare to be of "non-Warmblood" lines, but not the stallion.
        Money. There's a lot more mare owners out there than stallion owners.

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        • #5
          Definitely not AHS or GOV...or obviously the closed books like Traks and Holsteiner.

          The above books only take offspring from approved WB parentage, approved Tb and approved arabian (not holsteiner).
          Read about my time at the Hannoveraner Verband Breeders Courses:
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          • #6
            I have a friend who has a Holsteiner/Morgan cross mare branded AWR. The mare is an athletic freak of nature, too. What a jump!
            Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

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            • #7
              RPSI will approve her for the pre-mare book which means her offspring would only be able to get a COP regardless of who the sire is.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by MysticOakRanch View Post
                RPSI and Old NA/ISR will approve Morgan mares for breeding (or almost any mare for breeding - their mare requirements are similar to AWS and AWR, including using different books), thus their offspring would be registerable if bred to an approved stallion of those registries. Old NA puts them in the ISR books, but they still compete for Oldenburg USDF awards, etc. Neither will approve a stallion of those lines. I'm a bit puzzled as to why it is OK for the mare to be of "non-Warmblood" lines, but not the stallion.
                Originally posted by dressurpferd01 View Post
                Money. There's a lot more mare owners out there than stallion owners.
                Yes, it's all about money. Nothing about quality or improving the breed, it's just shameful greed. I'd guess they figure with mares, at least, they'll only have a very limited impact on anything, even if they're bred every year.

                Also plenty of people don't understand COP or lower books. A COP doesn't make a Morgan/x a Zweibrucker.
                "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." George Burns

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                • #9
                  ISR approval doesn't mean Oldenburg, either. It's the lowest book and equivalent to a COP.
                  Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
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                  • #10
                    COP or lower books still allows the horse to be shown as an Oldenburg or Zweibruker, or whatever. AWR and AWS also put them in a lower book for breeding purpose. But only breeders seem to understand the different books, brands, etc (and they are branded so they look even more like a WB to the average horse person). I have seen plenty of horses shown as RPSI and Oldenburg who were out of non-WB mares - Appaloosa, QH, Paint, Arabian, Draft cross, whatever - and they are still qualifying for USDF all breeds awards for those registries. So from a non-breeding standpoint (and the vast majority of the horse world is non-breeding), they "are" Warmbloods

                    If you look them up in the USDF All Breeds results, they are listed within that registry's results, and if they are a high scoring inspection score, they may even be listed in the registry's publications (a friend had an Appy/WB cross who was pictured in the registry's magazine one year because of his high inspection score). So even the registry is listing them as a horse within that registry. It blurs the lines, doesn't it?

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                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Thank you everyone! I've passed this info on to my friend. I think there's an RPSI inspection she would like to take her Morgan filly to. Her Morgans are definitely bred for sport.
                      You have to have experiences to gain experience.

                      1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by quietann View Post
                        Thank you everyone! I've passed this info on to my friend. I think there's an RPSI inspection she would like to take her Morgan filly to. Her Morgans are definitely bred for sport.
                        RPSI will inspect a Morgan for breeding approval - but not a filly for registration. There is a difference. If a Morgan mare is approved for breeding, then she can be bred to an approved RPSI stallion and the offspring can be entered into one of the RPSI books.

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                        • #13
                          Take Morgans as in register them? Or take Morgans as in give them some status for breeding purposes? If the Morgan needs to be registered, I think you will be limited to AWR, AWS, PHR and Morgan. If the horse is already registered, and you are looking to change/improve registry options of her future foals, then you could take her to one of the above listed warmblood registries for breeding approval.

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                          • #14
                            BWP will inspect Morgan mares for breeding to make their offspring eligible. I was going to do that with my mare but the closest inspection was 18 hours away and I decided since I currently plan on keeping the colt it wasn't worth it to me. Also keep in mind the foal must be by an approved stallion

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                            • #15
                              This discussion of course begs the question... just because you can register a Morgan cross with some of the less respected registries, and just because you may be able to then pass it off to an ignorant buyer as a "Warmblood"... should you?

                              I should add. The fact that the reputable registries wouldn't accept Morgan x's, and even the less reputable registries put a Morgan/x in their lowest books, this should send a message that they're not recommending this. Warmblood registries aren't endorsing Morgan x's, not even the registries willing to take your money and issue lower papers.

                              I hope the OPs friend will think long and hard about this.
                              "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." George Burns

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Originally posted by pinecone View Post
                                This discussion of course begs the question... just because you can register a Morgan cross with some of the less respected registries, and just because you may be able to then pass it off to an ignorant buyer as a "Warmblood"... should you?

                                I should add. The fact that the reputable registries wouldn't accept Morgan x's, and even the less reputable registries put a Morgan/x in their lowest books, this should send a message that they're not recommending this. Warmblood registries aren't endorsing Morgan x's, not even the registries willing to take your money and issue lower papers.

                                I hope the OPs friend will think long and hard about this.
                                Well, my friend's already decided not to take her filly to the WB inspection, because it just doesn't get her that much.

                                I do think that those of us in the sport Morgan world get tired of our horses being ragged on by the big WB people. Sometimes I think it's a strong misperception that Morgans are only for saddleseat or driving, that they cannot canter, that they are too crazy/hot, etc. The AMHA tries to promote "other" Morgans, but is somewhat limited because the saddleseat/breed show people are the ones with the money, and with Morgan registrations having dropped precipitously (less than 1000 registrations last year, down from 3000+ ten years ago!), money talks louder than anything else.

                                A good sport-bred or working western Morgan might bring something to the WB table: soundness, great hooves, trainability/willingness, and *smaller* size as many AAs realize that they do not need or want a 17-hand plus horse. But there are plenty of good WBs out there, so it's not something they "need."
                                You have to have experiences to gain experience.

                                1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I don't think the "big WB people" are ragging on Morgans. Or at least I've never interpreted the Warmblood breeding rules (which discourage the use of a lot of breeds, not just Morgans) as a personal thing. I think they're simply aiming to produce the best horses possible and they know what's likely to work and what's likely to fail so they've designed their breeding regulations accordingly. Nobody gets offended that National Show Horses only allow Arabian and Saddlebred, or that AQHA only allows Quarter Horse and Thoroughbred, so I never understand why people might get offended at Warmblood rules. Ultimately they're designed with the best interests of the horses and the breed in mind (and yes I use the term "breed" loosely but everyone knows what is meant.) I'd be more suspicious of registries with no rules, than a registry looking to promote responsible quality breeding. But ymmv of course.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    IMO it's frustrating that many of the Warmblood registries accept Arabians and Thoroughbreds but not Morgans. I understand the closed registries that feel they do not need to cross breed anymore. But I would think if you have an open registry and you inspect, then the breed should not be as important as the quality the specific horse brings to the registry.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by quietann View Post
                                      A good sport-bred or working western Morgan might bring something to the WB table: soundness, great hooves, trainability/willingness, and *smaller* size as many AAs realize that they do not need or want a 17-hand plus horse. But there are plenty of good WBs out there, so it's not something they "need."
                                      There are Warmblood stallions who are sound with good hooves, trainability, and smaller. There are also GRPs if you really want smaller. There's no need to go outside of Warmbloods (or GRPs) looking for something which "might" bring qualities, when these qualities are already available and proven.

                                      Originally posted by Serious Leigh View Post
                                      I don't think the "big WB people" are ragging on Morgans. Or at least I've never interpreted the Warmblood breeding rules (which discourage the use of a lot of breeds, not just Morgans) as a personal thing. I think they're simply aiming to produce the best horses possible and they know what's likely to work and what's likely to fail so they've designed their breeding regulations accordingly. Nobody gets offended that National Show Horses only allow Arabian and Saddlebred, or that AQHA only allows Quarter Horse and Thoroughbred, so I never understand why people might get offended at Warmblood rules. Ultimately they're designed with the best interests of the horses and the breed in mind (and yes I use the term "breed" loosely but everyone knows what is meant.) I'd be more suspicious of registries with no rules, than a registry looking to promote responsible quality breeding. But ymmv of course.
                                      Amen (bolding mine.)

                                      Originally posted by JustMyStyle View Post
                                      IMO it's frustrating that many of the Warmblood registries accept Arabians and Thoroughbreds but not Morgans. I understand the closed registries that feel they do not need to cross breed anymore. But I would think if you have an open registry and you inspect, then the breed should not be as important as the quality the specific horse brings to the registry.
                                      Good breeders (and registries) consider genetics and not just the individual.
                                      "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." George Burns

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by MysticOakRanch View Post
                                        RPSI and Old NA/ISR will approve Morgan mares for breeding (or almost any mare for breeding - their mare requirements are similar to AWS and AWR, including using different books), thus their offspring would be registerable if bred to an approved stallion of those registries. Old NA puts them in the ISR books, but they still compete for Oldenburg USDF awards, etc. Neither will approve a stallion of those lines. I'm a bit puzzled as to why it is OK for the mare to be of "non-Warmblood" lines, but not the stallion.
                                        Because a mare has much lesser impact on the breed as such as a stallion - due to possible number of offspring.
                                        I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
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                                        2017: Lissaro - SPS Don Frederico - Prince Thatch and Finnigan - Sandro Hit - Rouletto

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