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UPDATE: The most beautiful embryo I've ever seen! A pony Totilas!!! NEW - PICTURES

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  • #41
    It's not the difference in hands that concerns me, but the difference in bone WITH the height. Totilas is big, he has a lot of bone. The mare with pictures is pretty fine. It just...well, it concerns me.

    I do wish you luck and am anxious to see these babies, though. You are obviously excited you have at least one on the way after such extensive planning. I love seeing that!
    "IT'S NOT THE MOUNTAIN WE CONQUER, BUT OURSELVES." SIR EDMUND HILLARYMember of the "Someone Special To Me Serves In The Military" Clique

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    • #42
      I hope it all works out and you have a safe and successful foaling!

      I have no experience breeding pony mares but my initial reaction was one of concern as well. I know how easy it is to have problems when breeding a smaller mare to a large stallion, I lost a big colt that way. We saved the mare but ultimately our horses pay the price for our decisions.
      Good luck to you.

      Comment


      • #43
        For me it's an interesting theory - but one that my german pony breeder friends would wonder about. There are MANY GRPs available now with all the power and flashy movement like Totilas - but in the correct size and temperament that is the aim of the GRP. To try to find this extravagant movement - for me - you don't to go as far afield as Totilas. Stallions like Dimension, Caramel, Dreidimensional, Nemax and many others produce tons and tons of movement. Knees to ears and all. :-)

        I do have a pony mare from Mr Ellers that is a product of his breeding plan and she is lovely but my GRP breeder friends were still surprised I bought her. I will have to be quite careful in size when breeding her as she will most likely end up 15 hands ish. She was placed top 5 in the German Foal Championships in Lienen and of super high quality and is the sister to Cinderella - Euro FEI pony champion. But that was a hard fought choice and I got a whopping big boatload of eye rolling from my very successful GRP breeder buddies!
        For me having seen Totilas as a young horse, adult horse and many offspring - he is an "end product" thus far IMHO so perhaps that colors my opinion as well. He is also pretty well known for being a real "pro" ride and intimidating for Gal at the beginning as well. Not really the temperament I would be looking for in a pony breeding plan. But that's me.
        With my mares and stallions I want all that movement but with a temperament that is suitable for children and lady riders (same as the GRP societies goals). I can't reconcile Totilas with that goal.
        I did see a lovely Mr Mobility/Damon Hill foal last year that I strongly considered. That dam was 15.3ish and sire 13.3 ish. But that follows more with the german tradition when going this route of using a small pony on a large mare - so you don't end up with the mismatched size concerns.
        RoseLane Sportponies
        Golden State - 2012 Bundeschampion & 2014 USDF Horse of the Year
        Golden West - 2014 & 2015 Bundeschampion Pony Stallion
        Petit Marc Aurel- FEI Dressage Pony Stallion

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        • #44
          i would love to of seen the Mr Mobility/Damon Hill! I really like both of those lines....

          I bred my mare to a brother of Mr Mobility - Manchester City - cant wait to see the result.

          I think it is going to be awesome to have lots of ponies/honies around

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          • #45
            the Mr Mobility/Damon Hill - was a super mover. But unfortunately very crooked legs, so I had to pass. I was also told i had NO hopes of getting him licensed ever due to the bloodlines. The Weser Ems and Hanoverian ponies, on occaision, will license a pony/wb cross, but only very rarely. The Westfalen/Nord Rhine usually won't license them. Too much unpredictability in the future with the height. Interesting to note that NRW are the predominant pony studbooks in Germany not Weser Ems. We just mostly know Weser Ems here.
            RoseLane Sportponies
            Golden State - 2012 Bundeschampion & 2014 USDF Horse of the Year
            Golden West - 2014 & 2015 Bundeschampion Pony Stallion
            Petit Marc Aurel- FEI Dressage Pony Stallion

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            • #46
              It sounds like you have given lots of thought to these breedings as you sound like a very conscientiousness breeder. Congrats on the embryo!
              www.svhanoverians.com

              "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

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              • #47
                This has been a very interesting thread--good luck Foxcreek-hope you get your dream ponies!


                Examples include the Strahlmann, 155cm (Oldenburg by Sandro Hit / Weltmeyer / Busoni xx); Quader, 160cm (Oldenburg by Quaterback / Glöckner / Adamo I); the pinto stallion Showtime AS, 158 cm (Oldenburg by Sevillano xx / Uniek / Ico); Quatman, 153cm (Holsteiner by Quintero / Caretino);
                was curious if there were links to these stallions? Or somewhere I might take a look at them?
                Redbud Ranch
                Check us out on FB

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                • #48
                  I just want to say that I bred a small wb mare that had previously had 4 foals all by different wb stallions.. no one under 16.2 but none over 17hh... I bred her to Benetton Dream... would have lost both. huge foal.. had to pull and it was not an easy pull... I have always believed that it is the size of the uterous.. Well in this particular case that was wrong. I wish you luck with your foalings and would love to see those pony babies...

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by goodpony View Post
                    This has been a very interesting thread--good luck Foxcreek-hope you get your dream ponies!




                    was curious if there were links to these stallions? Or somewhere I might take a look at them?
                    Strahlemann
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9njM3...feature=relmfu
                    http://www.gratis-webserver.de/GabyHeemsoth/2_1_2.html

                    he was one of the ones I researched....

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                    • #50
                      For Quader I found this:

                      http://zuechterforum.com/zf/de/news/...tzendorf-.html
                      http://www.zfdp.de/images/stories/Er...Krung_2012.pdf

                      Showtime AS
                      http://www.eurohengststation-smidt.de/showtime-as.html

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                      • #51
                        thanks for the links!
                        Redbud Ranch
                        Check us out on FB

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                        • #52
                          I think this is a very interesting cross although I don't think I would have had the nerve to do it myself However, more and more of these and other types of crosses are being made and they are very interesting.
                          It is true that this would not have been considered the thing to do by many GRP breeders in Germany. However, what I have found in over a decade of breeding GRP's in the US is that the US market is very different from the German one. I resisted the WB cross for many years based on what my German contacts advised, but it has turned out to be my most requested "pony" in the US market. I tried it first with welsh stallion to WB mare and although they resulting foals were lovely, they did not compare to the corss I did this year by my GRP stallion, Burberry to a Rubin Royal x Donnerhall mare. https://www.facebook.com/#!/media/se...0181679&type=3
                          This colt is really all I had hoped for. No parts that don't match here! I had a hunch Burbery would cross great on WB mares since he himself is line bred to Constantin.

                          Anyway, thank goodness there are more than one way to do things and seldom is only one way the "right" way. I wish Foxcreek the best of luck and it will be a very interesting cross for sure.
                          Whispered Wish Weser-Ems: Breeding quality German Riding Ponies!
                          Standing the stallion Burberry
                          www.germanridingpony.com
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                          • Original Poster

                            #53
                            Honeylips, Please don't think I'm being argumentative or difficult. I think this conversation is very, very interesting. So please don't take my comments the wrong way, but I don't understand this statement:

                            For me it's an interesting theory - but one that my german pony breeder friends would wonder about. There are MANY GRPs available now with all the power and flashy movement like Totilas - but in the correct size and temperament that is the aim of the GRP. To try to find this extravagant movement - for me - you don't to go as far afield as Totilas. Stallions like Dimension, Caramel, Dreidimensional, Nemax and many others produce tons and tons of movement. Knees to ears and all. :-)

                            What you call an "interesting theory" is precisely how Caramel was produced. Caramel is SIRED by a 1/2 Welsh 1/2 warmblood stallion that is licensed and approved with Weser-Ems. He has even more Warmblood in his dam line in the third generation from the again 1/2 Welsh 1/2 Warmblood, Black Boy. I don't think you can lump the stallions you list in the same category. Nemax, Caramel, Dimension AT and Dreidimensional AT (1/2 brother to my stallion, Diamond King - same sire - Dance Star AT) were all developed from completely different routes. And even Dimension has Trakehner in his background.


                            I do have a pony mare from Mr Ellers that is a product of his breeding plan and she is lovely but my GRP breeder friends were still surprised I bought her..........But that was a hard fought choice and I got a whopping big boatload of eye rolling from my very successful GRP breeder buddies!
                            So, my next question is if this is just an "interesting theory" that you aren't too sure about, and there are plenty of GRP ponies that move extravagantly so that you don't have to go the 1/2 & 1/2 route, and your GRP breeder buddies all roll their eyes at it, then explain to me why you bought a 1/2 Welsh 1/2 warmblood from the Ellers breeding program?


                            For the record, I also bought a 1/2 Welsh 1/2 Warmblood from the Ellers program (Charivari/Sandro Hit) she was the Champion of the Elite Foal Championships in Weser-Ems and I bought her at the Elite Foal Auction almost 10 years ago - and if I'd known then what I know now I would never have done it!! Why? Because I can make 1/2 Welsh 1/2 Warmblood all day long in the US - I should not have spent the money on something that I can do just as well in the US. I should have spent the money on the unique pony bloodlines that make the GRP special and make the GRP what it has become - bloodlines like FS Don't Worry, FS Champion de Luxe, Dornik B, Golden Dancer, Brillant, etc..... I've since corrected my first mistake.

                            My GRP breeder friends also roll their eyes at the 1/2 Welsh 1/2 Warmblood cross. When I ask why some Germans (Ellers) do it they just shrug their shoulders and say - it's an end product. And like I said before my opinion lies somewhere in the middle of the two breeding approaches. I will say I don't like it when a 1/2 Welsh 1/2 Warmblood is called a GRP, because in my opinion it is not a GRP but one small ingredient in the creation of a GRP.

                            By the way, I love your stallion Golden State and I plan to breed my mare Dew Drop to him. I think that combination is a very interesting line breeding of the super Golden Moonlight stallion. I'm also very excited about having Manchester City available as he is an important tool in the toolbox of GRP breeders being 1/2 Welsh 1/2 GRP - the GRP line (the dam line) of which by the way has one line of Hanoverian!
                            Last edited by foxcreek; May. 7, 2013, 10:58 PM.
                            www.foxcreekfarm.com

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                            • #54
                              First off - you are being argumentative and attacking - or at least that is the way your message is coming across was my take on it. Sorry if I made that mistake. MY message above was SUPPORTIVE in that I understand and have made similar purchases myself - but you did take my post apart and demand that I defend things I said in it and even put words in my post that I didn't write.

                              As I stated for me it's an "interesting theory" (and that is meant in a positive way not negative as you have assumed - I never said it was one I "wasn't too sure about") and therefore I too stuck my toe in the water a couple of years ago by buying a 1/4 Grp, 1/4 welsh, 1/2 WB top filly from Mr Ellers. Whom I will breed back to smaller GRPs so the offspring is only 1/4 WB and I will have to be extraordinarily careful in doing so. As well I also looked at the other 1/2 small GRP 1/2 wb colt the other year. So I am not immune to this concept and see the USA value in it, hence my activities the past 3 years already in this breeding concept. But all the rest of my ponies are very heavily based in the tried and true pony bloodlines.

                              And yes it is a breeding theory that I get a boatload of eyerolling from my German breeder partners but hey - I'll take a gamble.

                              A point from above was that if you are purely searching for the extreme flashy movement of Totilas as your goal " I'd sure like to try to get that awesomeness in a small package!!!!!"- that movement is available in pony size if that is what you are really after. If you are after a Totilas foal - then just be upfront with that desire. It's just not a desire that I share. I differ from you in that if there is a need/desire to infuse some WB in my breeding program Totilas is just not where I would be going. But that's me. I would be looking more Rubinstein/Donnerhall/DeNiro/Damon Hill ish.

                              The interesting thing is that the example stallions I gave are of different origins and types and they all can produce the movement you say you are looking for - without the risk of going 1/2 WB so in case OTHERS are looking for the really mega movement but don't want to go to full WB - I'm giving options that are out there for those who are less immersed in the pony scene than you and I.



                              For me though when going down this breeding mode - I am more of a fan of the concept when doing this cross of Small on Big rather than Big on Small. Like the provent german pattern when using TBs of putting the "blood on top". So I chose to purchase "small on big" as that seems to be a safer and somewhat predictable outcome thus far.

                              But for me - the only difference in opinion we have, as I stated before, is I am just not a Totilas fan as a breeding stallion for the USA amateur market, based on himself and his offspring. But it's just me and I am sure there are a ton of ammy buyers in the USA who will love to have the chance to buy a 'small' Totilas should you decide to sell your foals.

                              But as I said with MY mares and stallions I want as much movement as I can get but with a temperament that is suitable for children and lady riders (same as the GRP societies goals). I can't reconcile Totilas with that goal. Especially since most of the USA buyers I get are smaller ladies looking to not be over horsed or intimidated by their mounts. So it may or may not be as flashy but overall, in MY breeding goals I will try to value high rideability and calm and steady temperament over hot and flashy and if I can breed the total package of both ridebility and flashy gaits - then that is a bonus. But that's exactly why I haven't bred to Dimension or Dreidimensional or bought foals from either one (even though I do state above that both puts a heck of a trot on the beautiful foals), perhaps it affects my choices since I am so familiar with both and have seen them in many circumstances and obviously work with Wibke. But they do put a mega flashy trot on the foals - that is true.

                              But that's me and we can differ in opinion about Totilas without you attacking me.

                              FWIW - Golden State is not,however, line bred on Golden Moonlight. Sorry for misunderstanding your earlier post that your mare with Goldi would give line breeding.

                              I also don't view this debate as "not getting along" but I do see you are very defensive about your choice of Totilas and don't like the fact that other disagree with you choice of both him as a stallion and the big on small concept.

                              I for one, in terms of my breeding and purchases, overall am more of a traditionalist at this point. I see so many ponies already bred that are far too 'hot' for the average ammy USA rider looking to buy that I just don't think Totilas is a good idea. But its your breeding program not mine.
                              In Germany the ponies already have enough "heat" into them - they certainly don't need a hottie like Toto added to the mix and they already produce way enough size so that also limits the interest of my breeder friends to mix in WB at this point in the breeding continuum. I have to say at this point - I agree with them on all fronts.
                              Last edited by honeylips; May. 8, 2013, 10:14 AM.
                              RoseLane Sportponies
                              Golden State - 2012 Bundeschampion & 2014 USDF Horse of the Year
                              Golden West - 2014 & 2015 Bundeschampion Pony Stallion
                              Petit Marc Aurel- FEI Dressage Pony Stallion

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                              • #55
                                interesting conversation!

                                and fwiw, i didn't read Foxcreeks post as an attack - i do hope that you both will continue this super dialog as it is very educational.

                                FoxCreek - I bred my Wolkentanz I mare to Manchester City - that foal is (cross fingers and knock wood) due later this month. I am really looking forward to see what he produces

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #56
                                  Yeah, that's exactly what I was afraid of happening. You'll notice it took me a whole day to post because I was worried about it. You did take my post in a way I did NOT intend. This is why I rarely post on here. And I think it's sad that most of the people in the US who are truly knowledgeable about and interested in the GRP don't seem to be able to get along.

                                  If we had been at dinner together and discussing breeding GRP's and this whole topic I would have asked you the EXACT same questions.

                                  I did NOT say that Golden State was line bred Golden Moonlight.

                                  I said the COMBINATION of Golden State to my mare Surrender Dew Drop would be a Golden Moonlight line breeding.
                                  www.foxcreekfarm.com

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                                  • #57
                                    FWIW, I did not read anything personal or attacking in EITHER of your posts here

                                    I do think this whole thread would have gone a very different, more positive way, if the breedings had been, as honeylips said, small on large, even if it was a Totilas mare

                                    honeylips - did I read you right that you were saying the small on large cross tends to provide more reliable results, and that those offspring tend to provide more reliability in terms of height?
                                    ______________________________
                                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by honeylips
                                      For me though when going down this breeding mode - I am more of a fan of the concept when doing this cross of Small on Big rather than Big on Small. Like the proven German pattern when using TBs of putting the "blood on top". So I chose to purchase "small on big" as that seems to be a safer and somewhat predictable outcome thus far.
                                      ^^^THIS^^^ In breeding situations this is the safer approach for the mare.
                                      Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist

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                                      • #59
                                        I believe in traditional horse breeding thats called 'blood over bone'.

                                        Its an interesting concept as when I brought my mare up for her performance test it was suggested to me that i breed her to the "HOTTEST" stallion I could find. Her 2010 colt foal is just like her in temperament and is uber-rideable, easy minded--really the ideal sort of temperament in keeping with the pony breeding tradition.
                                        Redbud Ranch
                                        Check us out on FB

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                                        • #60
                                          You know I can't help it but with my upbringing (dairy) and professional experiences, I'm all about prevention; so, I wouldn't see myself doing such a cross if the size differences being stated are accurate. I also tend to be more of a conventional wisdom sort of gal (call me chicken). And to add to the pile on, I must admit and it should come as no surprise to the 3 of you who actively breed and promote GRPs that I subscribe to honeylips' goals in trying to get the most athleticism but not at the expense of rideability. Of the earlier GRPs imported I've seen too many who were too much for their amateur (and junior) owners despite their shorter stature (still they were quality animals). However I will fully admit that I am intrigued and interested (in a positive way) in the resulting cross. While such a cross does not meet my personal goals, well if I had endless pasture and endless money....maybe....sure would be 'nice' to get a Totilas if there was someone to ride it .

                                          Having said all that, welsh cob breeders have been, for years, breeding Ds to As and Ds to Cs (the stallion being the D) without an abnormal increase in foaling risks/issues. Of course most I know who breed to section A mares don't do this type of cross with maidens; but, we're still talking about large on small breeding. I have and will continue to breed D (15 hand stallion) to C (13 hand mare) because I've realized my goals with the cross and even when she was a maiden the foal was proportionately sized. You wouldn't find me breeding my current stallion to a refined smaller mare; but, you also wouldn't see a refined A, C or D mare in my yard any how
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