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Color Gurus, Help Please? Dun / Black Question?

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  • Color Gurus, Help Please? Dun / Black Question?

    This horse has always been considered grulla. He was born light and darkened over the years. He has been color tested, is Ee for black and aa for agouti. He is nn for cream, silver, champagne and pearl.

    Can a true black be born light and darken over the years? This is not a foal coat thing, he took years to get this dark.

    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...type=3&theater

    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...type=3&theater

    Thank you.

  • #2
    He's an appy - appy genetics really, really can screw with color presentation, particularly on blacks LOL Is dun possible with his breeding? Does his Winter coat look different from Summer?

    This is a tested grulla appy mare

    LOVE the "handprint" on his right shoulder!
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      He comes from a line known for producing duns. His new owner had him color tested, but not for the dun gene. Which I am thinking now, is a separate test. His new owner made the comment that there is no dun in his color testing results.

      He has produced numerous dun offspring.

      This has come up in discussion in a group that is seeking samples from known duns. South Africa is soliciting samples for the National Genetics Institute to develop a Dun Zygosity test.

      Thanks

      Comment


      • #4
        I think the best rule for coat color when Appys are involved is "all bets are off." I learned that when my supposedly snowcap mare developed spots at the age of 8, LOL.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Or solids with no traits, develope snowflakes and caractaristics, at the age of five. LOL!

          Horse was sold as a hunter, to someone who did not want color. Breeder swore this one would never color.

          Good thing he was the best horse the owner ever had, because when he colored up, the spots didn't matter anymore.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by laskiblue View Post
            I think the best rule for coat color when Appys are involved is "all bets are off." I learned that when my supposedly snowcap mare developed spots at the age of 8, LOL.
            My few spot is doing the same thing. She started at about 9 (she's 11 now) and has developed black or red "ticking" every where she has dark skin. It hasn't effected her "snow cap blanket" (pink skin) or her four stockings (also pink skin). The few spots that she has had her whole life and her lightening marks haven't changed either... I'd love to see pictures of your mare!
            "It's never too late to be what you might have been." George Eliot

            Comment


            • #7
              But if the color results only list what you listed, then Dun wasn't tested for

              Do you have/can you get any pictures showing his spine?
              ______________________________
              The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by appdream View Post
                He has produced numerous dun offspring.
                He has produced dun offspring out of non-dun mares?
                Flickr

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  I guess, I will have to go through the old photos of him. Not sure if I have any from the correct angle to see his back.

                  But, question answered. Test results do not say he is dun, because no testing was performed for dun.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by furlong47 View Post
                    He has produced dun offspring out of non-dun mares?
                    Quite a few out of purebred TB mares.
                    Visit us on FB : ~ http://www.facebook.com/Leopard.Rock.Appaloosa.Stud
                    Breeders of the JG Wap line of Appaloosa Sport Horses

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      He doesn't look grulla at all to me in either photo, but if he's produced dun on non-dun mares, then he has to have that, provided those foals are true, line-backed duns.

                      Perhaps he wasn't tested for dun because Animal Genetics was used for the testing? They do not appear to run dun. Davis does, though.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JB View Post
                        But if the color results only list what you listed, then Dun wasn't tested for

                        Do you have/can you get any pictures showing his spine?
                        Irritatingly, in Appaloosas, that is not necessarily going to be of help if they have a large blanket or are a snowcap or fewspot Unless by some luck some of the dorsal stripe is visible (sometimes just a few hairs on the white) or there is a spot or spots running along the spine which would show the dorsal stripe running through them. It's usually visible in the tail more than the spine on Appaloosas with lots of white in that area. Interestingly, the dorsal running through the tail tends to turn completely white over time, when the horse hits 5 or 6 years old i.e. roans out.
                        Visit us on FB : ~ http://www.facebook.com/Leopard.Rock.Appaloosa.Stud
                        Breeders of the JG Wap line of Appaloosa Sport Horses

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          More pictures of those horse:

                          http://www.jgappaloosas.com/lenny.htm

                          I would love to see photos of his dun foals.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Simkie View Post
                            More pictures of those horse:

                            http://www.jgappaloosas.com/lenny.htm

                            I would love to see photos of his dun foals.
                            You can, if you view the foal pages. Quite a few are there - both out of Appaloosa and non-Appaloosa mares.
                            Visit us on FB : ~ http://www.facebook.com/Leopard.Rock.Appaloosa.Stud
                            Breeders of the JG Wap line of Appaloosa Sport Horses

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Simkie View Post
                              He doesn't look grulla at all to me in either photo, but if he's produced dun on non-dun mares, then he has to have that, provided those foals are true, line-backed duns.

                              Perhaps he wasn't tested for dun because Animal Genetics was used for the testing? They do not appear to run dun. Davis does, though.
                              Not your common, typical grulla no. More what they call Lobo Dun, or dark grulla. Dun is not a TB colour, so having produced duns out of TB mares, it would seem in all likelihood he is dun. It's extremely prevalent and common in the line.
                              Visit us on FB : ~ http://www.facebook.com/Leopard.Rock.Appaloosa.Stud
                              Breeders of the JG Wap line of Appaloosa Sport Horses

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by JB View Post
                                But if the color results only list what you listed, then Dun wasn't tested for
                                Just checked the test results, and no, dun was not tested for as the testing was done through AG and not UCLA Davis. That will be rectified shortly and my belief is the result will be Dd.
                                Visit us on FB : ~ http://www.facebook.com/Leopard.Rock.Appaloosa.Stud
                                Breeders of the JG Wap line of Appaloosa Sport Horses

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Here is some photos of an olive grulla daughter of his. She has a dorsal stripe (visible in second photo), shoulder barring and zebra striping on the legs.

                                  https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...type=3&theater

                                  https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...type=3&theater

                                  This is a full sister to the above mare. As she is aging, I believe that she too is grulla. But I think, she is a lobo grulla, like her father. Being a dark color, it is harder to see a dorsal stripe or barring. But, she is showing a distinct continued dorsal stripe through her tail in white. Other duns from this breeding program show this.

                                  https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...type=3&theater

                                  Continued dorsal stripe, in an older horse.

                                  https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...type=3&theater

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I wish I could remember the grulla stallion I have seen who everyone here would swear up and down was "just" black, he was THAT dark.

                                    This is as close as I can find, just on a quick search

                                    We get the benefit of seeing the very well-defined dorsal, but other than that, I would have probably said he's just a faded black. The other one I'm thinking of wasn't even faded looking.

                                    So yes, grullas can be really, really dark and black.
                                    ______________________________
                                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by JB View Post
                                      I wish I could remember the grulla stallion I have seen who everyone here would swear up and down was "just" black, he was THAT dark.

                                      This is as close as I can find, just on a quick search

                                      We get the benefit of seeing the very well-defined dorsal, but other than that, I would have probably said he's just a faded black. The other one I'm thinking of wasn't even faded looking.

                                      So yes, grullas can be really, really dark and black.
                                      I couldn't access your link, but googled Wrapatou, and found this : https://www.facebook.com/MountainVillageFarm Is this whom you're referring to? If so, he is as close as damnit to my dark grulla filly. She has all the dun characteristics, but they're not easy to see with such a dark coat, and definitely not with a winter coat. The one thing is her dorsal stripe is very visible, it looks like it's wet, even with a very woolly winter coat.
                                      Visit us on FB : ~ http://www.facebook.com/Leopard.Rock.Appaloosa.Stud
                                      Breeders of the JG Wap line of Appaloosa Sport Horses

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Oh goodness, just discovered this horse is the one I sent you a photo of Georgeanne! The one I said looks exactly the same colour as my filly. Small world, and yep, that's exactly her colour.
                                        http://www.duncentralstation.com/Grulla.html about 2/3 of the way down the page.
                                        Visit us on FB : ~ http://www.facebook.com/Leopard.Rock.Appaloosa.Stud
                                        Breeders of the JG Wap line of Appaloosa Sport Horses

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