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Foal pricing in the US vs Europe?

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  • #41
    Buy a nicely constructed , athletic foal from the best LINE of mares possible. Be prepared to pay a healthy price in the event you can even access such a filly.

    I buy from the #1 ranked mare family in the world for the production of international showjumpers. When you buy from this type of female genetic contribution , you lessen your risk.

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by Prime Time Rider View Post
      How is it not costing you anything additional to feed and have your young horses trimmed by a farrier, wormed and vaccinated between ages 1 and 3? Unless you're able to grow all your own hay, it costs you every month to feed and maintain a young horse. I calculate that it costs me average of $300 a month per horse for hay, feed and bedding, or $3600 a year. Add the cost of hoof trimming, routine vet care and worming and it costs me over $4,000 a year to feed and maintain a young horse. So, if a yearling is priced at $10,000 add another $8,000 just to cover costs for a 3 year old.
      Well...I must have better pastures. It does not cost me 4000 a year to keep them. But regardless...my point was it doesn't cost me much...not anywhere close to the initial costs. Of course I'm not selling at costs. But it cost me less to keep a young horse than to costs to get them to a weanling. It is worth it to me to sell them quick for 8500-9000 when they are still by the dam's side. But afterwards. No...I'd rather price them higher (only selling to a really serious buyer) and keep them to see what they will become (so typically 15-25K). I can start them in house and tell if they are quickly going to be super star 4-5 year old that I can get some serious money or if I should cut my loses and sell them for less.

      So unless they are bought VERY young....there is not going to be a big price difference between a yearling and a 3 year old. And I'm not wasting time or effort to even advertise them.
      ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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      • #43
        Even if you produce your own feed that doesn't mean it is free. If you can sell it for X amount of dollars than that is your input costs. So many horse breeding operations are hobbies or being supported by a primary income that the prices do not represent the actual costs. Which is great for buyers...

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        • #44
          Originally posted by stoicfish View Post
          Even if you produce your own feed that doesn't mean it is free. If you can sell it for X amount of dollars than that is your input costs. So many horse breeding operations are hobbies or being supported by a primary income that the prices do not represent the actual costs. Which is great for buyers...

          That is sort of my point. By the time they are a yearling...I'm already out so much. I'm not selling for a profit at that point so I'd rather wait (at a cost) and aim to sell them older or keep them for myself. So it just becomes at what point do I cut my losses. For me...that comes after I've started them and decided what they are like to ride. So yes, it does cost me to keep them but since it isn't such a huge cost, I'd rather wait and see what they are before cutting my losses more. I'm not really trying hard to sell them at this gawky age and they are priced more at the price I'm willing to let them go rather than at value (if that makes sense).


          No...I do not make money from breeding. I have and can actually make money buying OTTBs and reselling them. And if I was just in this for money...that is what I would do. But for me, while I'm trying to breed the best horses that I can....it is absolutely a money loser and not something I'm doing to get rich!!!
          ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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          • #45
            What should make an above average priced filly?

            If you are a person looking to have added value in a performance horse at retirement or if a performance career is lost due to injury or because you intend to breed the mare yourself at the end of her performance career then it is important to consider fillies with stellar marelines and pedigrees and where their breeders have invested in activities that will enhance the value of their fillies and mares. Those fillies will have bonited dams and dam lines recognized for their produce. The fillies themselves have attended inspections and scored very well. Some of these fillies have such clear breeding potential that they go straight to being bred from. Some breeders are so well known that the fact of a filly coming from their influence mean the filly can sell for more. Sometimes the sire is the next hot thing and their offspring are getting a lot of buzz...that is sometimes a short term thing but still the filly seller gets to strike(sell) while the iron is hot.

            You may or may not benefit from a top filly. If you plan on breeding at the top level of the top major sport horse registries...Holsteiner, Hannoverian, Dutch, maybe Oldenberg...these are the fillies you need to search for.

            If you you want to compete at the top level as a rider but are choosing a mare because you prefer mares not because you have plans to breed then you don't have the same needs and can look in less rarified catagories.

            There IS a premium on quality movement and YOU need to be educated to know what the differences are between quality movement for inspection scores and quality movement for what potential top dressage horses will look like as a foal. There are many registries and some don't get the high prices of the top registries. If you want a mare who will reach Grand Prix but you do not have Olympic or even National Awards ambitions there are many choices. Some are not high priced.

            Are there very very over priced fillies out there. Certainly there are fillies priced out of line with what the dam and breeder and quality of the individual should demand. Perhaps there are many fewer fillies available due to fewer breeders breeding the last 4 years so the fillies available are higher priced. Perhaps the filly dazzles the owner with their movement and the owner thinks that is enough. There is barn blindness but there is also a lack of education for what a top filly is and they think they have one...but don't have the full picture in THEIR filly.

            I breed and do not breed for the top of the major warmblood registries...I breed Irish Draught Horses and Irish Draught Sport Horses. I will not ever have a filly I can sell for 20K. In my breed the very best fillies sell for about 7K-10K. I have a filly for sale right now and she is exceptional but she will never be a modern warmblood. Her gaits are very good her canter is outstanding. She will always have the build of her breed...none of that build prevents her from achieving upper level in dressage but the fashion of today means she will find her buyer in someone not following fashion...they will pay less for her because her breed is not yet known for producing upper level dressage horses. On the farm I am at we produce sport horses. We don't have 10K foals. They do not have the pedigree for that price. They are bred for low to mid level sport horse market and temperaments are first, gaits will be generally good and true and elastic but less suspension...easy gaits to ride for people who can put fewer hours in the saddle. They are those annoying horses who go to a show and are nonplussed by the atmosphere and score well and accurately. They generally don't get the chance to go higher than 2nd level because their riders generally don't have the time to take them higher...not because the horses lack the talent to go higher.

            Every year we get 2 to 4 horses out of 20+ foals that could go anywhere AND who could show at the top in sport. They will be priced less than top warmblood breeders and they serve a different purpose in the community...they are not bred to be breeding horses. One top filly(2yo)we have now and she is out of an unregistered...or lost registry...Trakhener mare who was a show ring jumper and the filly is by an approved Irish Draught stallion. She is exceptional but we can't ask 20K even if she can compete with a filly at that level in conformation and movement. She is a prospect only at 2 and is not necessarily a candidate for breeding though she can be registered and inspected for breeding as an Irish Draught Sport Horse. She has not been to any foal inspection and her dam is pedigree unknown. She will stay below 10k until she is started at 3. So there are a range of fillies out there and you have to define where you intend on being as a rider and as a breeder. There are many different levels all with nice horses and good candidates for upper level. PatO

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            • #46
              Originally posted by stoicfish View Post
              Even if you produce your own feed that doesn't mean it is free. If you can sell it for X amount of dollars than that is your input costs. So many horse breeding operations are hobbies or being supported by a primary income that the prices do not represent the actual costs. Which is great for buyers...
              well..... sure there are costs involved with growing your own hay, but they are far far far less than for instance what a breeder here will pay for hay (22/bale) so there are many ways a breeder can reduce their costs..... hay is just one example.

              i think part of the puzzle is that many people breeding are not really doing it as a businesses - so there is not the drive to economize/put each asset to its best use etc that the market/business economics requires for businesses to thrive and stay alive.

              hence breeders can and do charge widely divergent prices for foals, etc.

              Comment


              • #47
                It might seem odd to you guys in the USA and Canada but the UK breeders have the same problem. Good horses being bred here but the buyers all go off to Germany to buy a 7/8 TB with 'pink papers' or a German Riding Pony that is half Welsh and half British Riding Pony - but with papers in a different language. So they willingly pay more.

                So, aside from my rant, how about looking to see who is using the bloodlines you like, see if these people consistently produce good horses (presumably breeding is available in results tables) and then ask the breeders if they have any more. In the old advert for Yellow Pages, 'let your fingers do the walking'. Or is that the blindingly obvious and just what you are already doing?

                Then, out of curiousity, what of breeds like the Sport American Saddlebred? Are they cheaper than a WB?
                "Good young horses are bred, but good advanced horses are trained" Sam Griffiths

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by Willesdon View Post
                  It might seem odd to you guys in the USA and Canada but the UK breeders have the same problem. Good horses being bred here but the buyers all go off to Germany to buy a 7/8 TB with 'pink papers' or a German Riding Pony that is half Welsh and half British Riding Pony - but with papers in a different language. So they willingly pay more.
                  Last summer I spent a week with a breeder from England. She is young but comes from SERIOUS money and is setting up a HUGE, super breeding program over there. Her plan was to breed them, raise them to 3-4 years old, get them started under saddle and send them to Germany to sell back to England (or where ever the buyer is from). She said the same thing...and it is even easier for a Brit to go to Germany/ Holland to horse shop than it is for an American.
                  Read about my time at the Hannoveraner Verband Breeders Courses:
                  http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2011.html
                  http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2012.html

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                  • #49
                    And I bought already two or three time in UK at an auction to Import to Germany ...
                    I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
                    www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
                    2017: March: Filly by Lissaro - SPS Don Frederico - SPS Prince Thatch
                    May: Finnigan - Sandro Hit - SPS Rouletto

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                    • #50
                      I think part of your difficulty is that you are looking for a filly that will be a "product" (FEI level sporthorse) and a "producer" (able to pop out excellent riding horses year after year). It is extremely rare to find this combination in one package as a foal. Some of the very best sporthorses in the world can't produce anything you'd want to have in your barn and some horses you would pay people to take off your hands produce fabulous sporthorses year after year. The very best riding mare I had (scored an 8, elite mare) only produced mediocre babies even with trying a number of different stallions. To top it off she was hard to get and keep in foal. My best broodmare has never been ridden but her full brother is a Grand Prix dressage horse and has been a HOY and her full uncle won the Bundeschampionate. Her offspring have been in hand champions and are doing well under saddle.
                      Either find an older broodmare that has been a producer (they are out there) and breed your own or find a filly you want to ride. You'll save money and time.
                      Cindy Bergmann
                      Canterbury Court
                      559-903-4814
                      www.canterbury-court.com

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                      • Original Poster

                        #51
                        Originally posted by Canterbury Court View Post
                        I think part of your difficulty is that you are looking for a filly that will be a "product" (FEI level sporthorse) and a "producer" (able to pop out excellent riding horses year after year). It is extremely rare to find this combination in one package as a foal. Some of the very best sporthorses in the world can't produce anything you'd want to have in your barn and some horses you would pay people to take off your hands produce fabulous sporthorses year after year. The very best riding mare I had (scored an 8, elite mare) only produced mediocre babies even with trying a number of different stallions. To top it off she was hard to get and keep in foal. My best broodmare has never been ridden but her full brother is a Grand Prix dressage horse and has been a HOY and her full uncle won the Bundeschampionate. Her offspring have been in hand champions and are doing well under saddle.
                        Either find an older broodmare that has been a producer (they are out there) and breed your own or find a filly you want to ride. You'll save money and time.
                        My main goal is to find a filly that I want to RIDE. I just think nice bloodlines going along alot of the times with nice riding horses. But most importantly is I want a really nice dressage prospect with a nice big balanced canter.

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                        • #52
                          Pricing foals.

                          Always an interesting discussion.

                          I’ve been breeding and selling foals for almost 10 years and this is my method:

                          First I dismiss any notion that the price of the foal will be in anyway related to what I’ve invested in conceiving it. (Breeders: Long term if the price you can get for your foals is bellow what you need to “produce” them then you have to revise the concept that you have a business and revert to hobby designation).

                          I start at the high end: what are the top price for foals in NA? I think that the $15,000 to $18,000 is probably about right. (Notice I did not say they were top foals, I simply say what is the high end of the scale).If you think the price can be higher than adjust accordingly.
                          Then I start subtracting:

                          Is the foal from a top mare line with traceable offsprings in performance (chances are she is from Europe as we are terrible in NA at tracking offsprings)? No: take $4000 off if it’s a filly, $2000 off if it’s a colt unless it is considered a stallion prospect ;-)

                          Is the Dam inspected with one of the top Stud book and score in the top 10% to 20% (Premium designation or whatever that stud book calls it,)? No: take another $2000 off.
                          Does the dam have any other credentials other than her inspection scores? No? Take another $1000 off.

                          Will the foal get full registration papers from the registry? No: Take another $2000 off-particularly relevant if this is a filly.

                          Is the sire approved based on scores and has a performance record? No: take another $500 off.
                          Does the sire have traceable performing offsprings. No take another $1000 off unless it’s a young stallion just starting out then take $500 off.

                          We are now in the $6000 to $8000 range.

                          Now: is the foal correct/healthy in all aspect. No? Take another $1000-$2000 off based on what is not quite right.

                          Is he/she flashy, attractive? Is she exceptional compare to her siblings (1/2 or full)- and you can demonstrate this by comparison (photo, video, performance etc…). Add $1000 to $2000.

                          If your registry inspects foals and gives scores and it scored in the top 15% in the nation: Add $500.

                          Does he or she appear to be destined to be an amateur mount or only for fully insured professionals (give the future buyers some room to pay for some help down the road ) Take another $1000 off.
                          How badly do you want to sell the foal?

                          So to the OP, you can see that wanting a filly (which most breeders will secretly covet..) with full papers, from proven sire and dam line and from good lines that also has the potential for the upper level career basically puts you in the highest price bracket. Look at what you are willing to negotiate and you will see the price drop in reaction to your choices.
                          Good luck.
                          Véronique
                          www.FormosusSporthorses.ca
                          Like us on Facebook

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                          • #53
                            a problem you will have is assessing that big balanced canter in a foal. One day they may look fabulous and the next not so much. Also there is the argument that a great foal/yearling/3year old mqy not be so great once under saddle. Hence is the gamble. That is why i suggest when purchasing young stock look at the horse but really look at the pedigree/ family success.

                            Originally posted by Dev.R View Post
                            My main goal is to find a filly that I want to RIDE. I just think nice bloodlines going along alot of the times with nice riding horses. But most importantly is I want a really nice dressage prospect with a nice big balanced canter.
                            Read about my time at the Hannoveraner Verband Breeders Courses:
                            http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2011.html
                            http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2012.html

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #54
                              Originally posted by Blume Farm View Post
                              a problem you will have is assessing that big balanced canter in a foal. One day they may look fabulous and the next not so much. Also there is the argument that a great foal/yearling/3year old mqy not be so great once under saddle. Hence is the gamble. That is why i suggest when purchasing young stock look at the horse but really look at the pedigree/ family success.
                              Is there a time in a young horse life, that they resemble most what they will be once full grown? I have heard it is in their first year, but then I have also heard the opposite too. BTW if I haven't replied to a PM yet, I am getting to it

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Is there a time in a young horse life, that they resemble most what they will be once full grown?
                                Well, the answer is...perhaps there is one.

                                Seriously, an old wive tale says 3 days, 3 weeks, 3 months, 3 years are the best moments of a young horse to assess what he might turn out to be. Because at 3 days, it starts to unfold, at 3 weeks, it starts to be stronger and more agile, and at 3 months it starts to show a good shape, muscles and it is still uphill. Then... well. Then we just hide them behind the barn until the other magic 3... The 3yo. No... Not all of them lol! Some yearlings still manage to look cute. And some foals stay balanced and grow almost evently all the way long. But some very very fugly yearlings still turn out to be pretty darn nice looking at 3.
                                Les Écuries d'Automne, Québec, Canada
                                Visit EdA's Facebook page!

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                                • #56
                                  3 days, 3 weeks, 3 months, 3 years

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    As others have said generally speaking the best time look at the youngsters are 3day, 3month, 3 year. However, that is definitely not a hard fast rule. I had a colt that was stunning only at 4 months old and gawky every other day until now again at 4 years old. He just did not fill out until recently.

                                    Gaits can be really hard to assess if they are at a butt high stage...which can be their entire first 3 years of life
                                    Read about my time at the Hannoveraner Verband Breeders Courses:
                                    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2011.html
                                    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2012.html

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Dev.R, if you are on Facebook, there is a page for "Warmbloods for Sale", "Hanoverian Horses for Sale", Foals for Sale, etc. Also MidAtlantic Hanoverian Breeders Group can organize farm sites to view prospects. Most of us have or are expecting 2013 foals, and have yearling, two-year-olds, and started three-year-olds for sale. There are wonderful U.S. and Canadian breeders on Facebook and my daily fare seems to be viewing everyone else's wonderful homebred dressage, hunter, or jumper future stars for sale in unlimited numbers!

                                      Diane Halpin/Laurel Leaf Hanoverians: Facebook

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                                      • #59
                                        Just my observations... I've noticed that foals from quality mares by in demand proven stallions are being listed at $12,000 - $14,000 sometimes more in-utero here. I've never come across a German breeder who will sell their foals in utero. Tack on importation and the price is not that different. The difference is only if you actually board the foal in Germany. That's where the saving is...
                                        Westbrook Farm
                                        Facebook

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                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by Mistysmom View Post
                                          Just my observations... I've noticed that foals from quality mares by in demand proven stallions are being listed at $12,000 - $14,000 sometimes more in-utero here. I've never come across a German breeder who will sell their foals in utero. Tack on importation and the price is not that different. The difference is only if you actually board the foal in Germany. That's where the saving is...
                                          They will, however it is more and more through embryo transfer. You purchase an embryo and rent the recipient mare.

                                          I have read with interest all the topic. One thing struck me is that everyone believes they have top proven bloodlines and therefore they are convinced that their foals are priced appropriately. When you search a little bit a go over websites, you to often notice that those "proven bloolines" are in fact from a random fooundation thoroughbred mare with one ore two generations of "big names" stallions on top. And the proven production, way to often, are winners as foals or yearling in hunter comformation classes, mares with good marks at inspection or high potential 9 years old that would have jumped internationaly if, and if, and if.... The other thing we often see, is dames from greatly acclaimed german mother lines, but from a branch on wich you cannot find any significant performers in 5 or more generations.

                                          I have been shopping in Europe recently for great young fillies to use as future broodmares and have noticed that, in all honestly, the quality offered is of an average better than what we can find her. As mentionned previously, the good ones are not cheaper than her. However, people there knows what they have and when they present you a good one, it is REALY a good one, with real athletic habilities and bloodlines that have produced in the first and or second generations back.

                                          Also, their remains the fact that many breeders will simply not sale their very best ones until they have a clear idea of their potential.

                                          Finaly, I believe that theiur are great exagerations regarding prices of foals in Europe. If you go through auction results, you may pick one or two everynow and then that goes for stelar prices when two welthy buyers happen to want the same thing. Also, if your are looking for embryos of some very specific mares, the demand may drive prices very high but those mares are the exception. But to say that the usual price for a top foal is 50K and over euros is, from my experience in the showjumping market, ridiculous.
                                          Last edited by Cumano; Apr. 17, 2013, 11:36 AM.

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