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Foal pricing in the US vs Europe?

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  • #21
    Well just looking at the Hannoveraner Verband Elite Auction foals prices were upwards of 20K Euro...so even the best foal in Germany still commands a high price. I didn't do the math but quite a few sold in the 6-7Euro prices...making that almost 10K US, with import you are looking at 17K US...and that didn't include vetting, taxes/ fees, shipping from airport to your home...so if you are able to spend that in Euros you should have a really good budget for buying here!

    Also, wanting a foal only from an FEI level broodmare may prove to be super difficult (even in Europe). Few top broodmares had FEI careers themselves...their success is in the breeding shed. First lesson for a breeder is "you don't breed a mare, you breed a mare line". So look at the dam, her siblings, aunts/ uncles, other offspring of hers. When looking for a future broodmare that is what counts.

    When I bought my broodmare she had not even completed her MPT yet. But her dam was champion mare of the biggest mare shows in Germany, her dam produced 3 licensed stallions, her dam's sister produced Del Piero, her 1/2 sister (via dam) produced recent Celle stallion, etc. That is what I purchased...her family

    Good luck and I am sure you will find what you are looking for right here!
    Read about my time at the Hannoveraner Verband Breeders Courses:
    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2011.html
    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2012.html

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #22
      Originally posted by stoicfish View Post
      They have a lot of horses to choose from and are not as easily impressed by great bloodlines. In other words I don't think they have better prices for horses. Just more availability.
      I saw that trend, but on the flip side I saw a few breeders have foals priced upwards near 25-30k just on the bloodlines alone with a video that did not seem like something special.

      Comment


      • #23
        If you look at the inspection results for the KWPN NA you can see all the foals presented to the registry for 2012 and if they were awarded first or second premium. The breeders names are listed and their addresses are given at the end of the pdf file.

        http://kwpn-na.org/display/files/pro...esults2012.pdf

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #24
          Thank you for that, I will try to look some foals up that way too in the other registries.
          Originally posted by b View Post
          If you look at the inspection results for the KWPN NA you can see all the foals presented to the registry for 2012 and if they were awarded first or second premium. The breeders names are listed and their addresses are given at the end of the pdf file.

          http://kwpn-na.org/display/files/pro...esults2012.pdf

          Comment


          • #25
            Not dressage but just to give you an idea , I breed Holsteiners here and broker them out of Germany from the best breeders I've known for the better part of the last 20 years. They all come from the very best families for producing international sporthorses. You will not get one here for less than 15-20k and not one out of Holstein for less than 15k -18k euro .Sure , you can find the foals from 6-10k ,but they won't be the best.

            You want a top prospect ? Get out your checkbook. When you buy one of these top foals , if everything goes right , you will eventually have the 4 yr old that you wouldn't have been able to buy , nor even seen , otherwise.

            Goo luck !

            Comment


            • #26
              We, personally, will not waste our special mares to performance. If we have an exceptional filly, she may never see the ring. Her value is in producing her exceptional qualities in the next generation.

              Originally posted by vandenbrink View Post
              I just read a comment you posted while I was preparing my post. Restricting the search to proven performance mares seriously really limits your options. Many of us won't go down the road of ET because of the extra costs. It easily adds 5000 plus on average to the production of the foal if not more. Once these mares are aged and retired from competition the bloodlines may be old news and fertility is depressed. I rather breed a young mare of exceptional bloodlines then an old girl even with an FEI show record. The foals from those FEI level performance mares are very rare and the breeders are often the owners of those mares while they were in competition and are less likely to let those foals go for market value.
              In regards to pricing, our foals will typically be priced from $6,500 to $25,000 which is based on pedigree, quality, potential, correctness, etc. Our highest priced foals have a "love" price on them as these are the ones that we would like to keep to start under saddle. We are not necessarily trying to sell these foals, but since we receive inquiries about the nicest ones, we do price them. I have to say that the very nice foals in Germany are quite expensive and to purchase them reasonably, you need to get on a waiting list and purchase in-utero.

              That said, I do see many advertisements for foals that leave me stumped as to how the breeder expects to get the advertised price for their foal. Some breeders do not understand that it is not what you have into the foal but rather the end product. Some you take a loss on, some you break even, and some you make a profit.

              Comment


              • #27
                If you don't at first recognize the reasoning in the price difference between foals
                - your question will usually be answered by looking at the dam. A truly special dam, through performance and/or bloodlines, will command top prices for foals while a mediocre dam (no matter how "great" the stallion) will bring less. Although there are many exceptions, in general top priced foals are priced according to what the market will pay.
                www.threewishesfarm.com
                https://www.facebook.com/ThreeWishesFarm
                Expecting 2017 foals by Vagabond de la Pomme, Cornet Obolensky, Zirocco Blue, Catoki and Christian.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Totally agree! Although, I am seeing breeders who have way overvalued their mare(s). For example, I recently received an email in regards to a broodmare for sale. Seller was asking $25,000 for a 15 year old mare who had just retired from sport. She competed in the 1.40 meter jumpers and was successful at that level. She was by a notable sire but from a dressage bred mare of a not very noteworthy mother line. She was old fashioned in type. For me, a mare like this would have very little value as a broodmare (thus lowering the value of her offspring). I don't care that she was successful in sport ... she did not have the pedigree to back it up, she did not have a breeding history, she was not modern in type, etc.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    For me, a yearling seemed like a better purchase than a foal. I don't have the eye to evaluate foals anyway. I wanted to support a US breeder and buy a well-bred filly. The dam is a bundeschampionat medal winner and the sire is a modern European GP stallion. The filly had good nutrition, appropriate turnout and handling, did very well shown in hand, and I paid the asking price of 15K as I thought she was worth it. I'm looking forward to seeing how she develops. I hope you can find what you want in N. America.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Yes, I agree that if you by a more average European foal for 8000 Euro, but the time you import it, the cost will be around $16000. And there expensive ones are much, much higher. Here in the US, there seems to be less of a range on prices, for both the good and the bad. The best here never seem to bring what they would in Europe for similar quality foal.

                      Good luck OP! I also suggest checking out breeder websites or looking at warmbloods-for-sale and finding breeders of stock you like, then looking to see if they have more that you like.
                      Kris
                      www.edgewoodmeadowfarm.com
                      Like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/edgewoodmeadowfarm

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                      • #31
                        There are deals to be had in Europe, and deals to be had here in the US. But what you want is something whoever has it knows they have. So you most likely won't catch a deal, your requirements are very high. And there isn't wrong with that. But echoeing the other breeders on this thread, you are breeding to the dam line. You are breeding to her family.

                        Ask Bayhawk or other Holsteiner breeders how he would feel about breeding from a performance mare? Her show record is not indicative of what she can or will produce. She had better have a great producing family or what you have on paper may not be what you will have in the flesh.

                        So broaden your horizons. By all means she needs to have an upper level producing family but do not discount the career broodmare. The saying is breed the best and ride the rest.

                        You'll find the one you're looking for... And here in the US. Contact breeders who have produced the horses you like. If they don't have it I bet they would know who does.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          As somebody who has been breeding warmblood youngsters since 1984, here are some of my observations regarding the subject.... 1. semen cost varies quite a bit - just compare Totilas semen to Sir Donnerhall II, for example. 2. raising a foal costs more the longer you have it, so yes, a 2-year old youngster is going to cost more than a yearling or a weanling. 3. In this country, breeding a top notch foal doesn't get you a higher price as it does in Europe (and that is actually one of my pet peeves). Now if I could figure out how to insert spaces for paragraphs this would be much easier to read!
                          Siegi Belz
                          www.stalleuropa.com
                          2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
                          Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
                            That isn't that surprising. I know that my own baby horses...I'm not changing the sale price for them much from yearling to 3. Honestly...other than unexpected vet bills....they just plain do not cost me as much to keep while they are growing. Most breeders are not boarding their horses but have their own farms. Now once I've put some time getting them green broke AND if they live up to the quality that I previously thought of them...then their price will go up. Once they show...it may go up again. But if I've started them...and they proven difficult undersaddle....well, the price may not go up Once they are started, buyers can sit on them and evaluate them differently than just looking at a pretty mover in the field (for better or worse depending!)

                            But no...you will not see a big price change often between a foal and a 2 or 3 year old. The major cost went into that foal to get it on the ground.....and let's face it. 2-3 year olds can be ugly ducklings that not all buyers can see past. So yeah...they will be priced where they are when on the ground (or perhaps higher after an inspection or large show in hand) and that price often doesn't change much until you put the next larger chunk of time and money into them which is typically at 3 or 4.
                            How is it not costing you anything additional to feed and have your young horses trimmed by a farrier, wormed and vaccinated between ages 1 and 3? Unless you're able to grow all your own hay, it costs you every month to feed and maintain a young horse. I calculate that it costs me average of $300 a month per horse for hay, feed and bedding, or $3600 a year. Add the cost of hoof trimming, routine vet care and worming and it costs me over $4,000 a year to feed and maintain a young horse. So, if a yearling is priced at $10,000 add another $8,000 just to cover costs for a 3 year old.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              So, your wish list is;
                              • I want a filly with really good bloodlines, as I am considering have a small breeding operation.
                              • And do you then expect to offer foals from your own breeding operation with top bloodlines for $8000????? After spending good money on a foal, raising her up and competing her up to fei and retiring her to breed?? Good luck! If you go to Europe to buy a foal, don't think other people in this country will buy your American bred foals from you rather than go to Europe as you seen to want to do.

                                I am a 3 Star Breeder with my registry - one of only about 10 in the country. I have 2 ELITE broodmares with good (GP) bloodline, 2 ELITE mare candidates, who need only 1 Premium Foal to be ELITE, and one Premium Mare Candidate who has only to produce 1 Premium Foal.

                                All my mares are Performance tested and several passed with the highest scores for rideability.

                                I tend not to advertise my foals as most buyers do not have any idea how to keep and raise a foal and are in boarding stable situations not suitable for a foal anyway. However if anyone with the knowledge and proper surroundings to keep them asked about one of them I would certainly sell it, and the prices would be from about $7,500 - $15,000. In Europe, that $15,000 foal would easily get somewhere from $25,000 - $65,000, but there is NO WAY anyone can get the upper price for a foal in this country, no matter what the quality. Every registry's inspectors have told US breeders that we now have the quality in this country to equal Europe, but everyone still goes over there to buy.

                                Just look at some of the breeder's websites on this forum and see if you like some of the mares and the bloodlines of some of the offspring for sale and just pop an email to see what else they may have that is not advertised. I breed anywhere from 1 t0 4 mares a year. I currently have one of my offspring that I bred at PSG. He just got a 66+ at his 2nd recognized show at PSG at 8 years old. I think that, plus the credentials of my mares, and the high number of Premium Foals I produce is proof of my breeding program. And, oh yeah, I bred most of my own broodmare band and have daughters and sisters and nieces of my foundation stock so I know very well, from foal production and show records, what they produce - as do most of the other breeders on this forum.

                                And I don't care if you buy a foal from me, but stop putting American breeders down and thinking you have to go to Europe. Remember!! If you go that route and then start up a breeding business, you will soon become - - gasp!!!! - -one of us.
                              Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
                              Now apparently completely invisible!

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #35
                                Originally posted by Tiki View Post
                                And do you then expect to offer foals from your own breeding operation with top bloodlines for $8000????? After spending good money on a foal, raising her up and competing her up to fei and retiring her to breed?? Good luck! If you go to Europe to buy a foal, don't think other people in this country will buy your American bred foals from you rather than go to Europe as you seen to want to do.

                                I am a 3 Star Breeder with my registry - one of only about 10 in the country. I have 2 ELITE broodmares with good (GP) bloodline, 2 ELITE mare candidates, who need only 1 Premium Foal to be ELITE, and one Premium Mare Candidate who has only to produce 1 Premium Foal.

                                All my mares are Performance tested and several passed with the highest scores for rideability.

                                I tend not to advertise my foals as most buyers do not have any idea how to keep and raise a foal and are in boarding stable situations not suitable for a foal anyway. However if anyone with the knowledge and proper surroundings to keep them asked about one of them I would certainly sell it, and the prices would be from about $7,500 - $15,000. In Europe, that $15,000 foal would easily get somewhere from $25,000 - $65,000, but there is NO WAY anyone can get the upper price for a foal in this country, no matter what the quality. Every registry's inspectors have told US breeders that we now have the quality in this country to equal Europe, but everyone still goes over there to buy.

                                Just look at some of the breeder's websites on this forum and see if you like some of the mares and the bloodlines of some of the offspring for sale and just pop an email to see what else they may have that is not advertised. I breed anywhere from 1 t0 4 mares a year. I currently have one of my offspring that I bred at PSG. He just got a 66+ at his 2nd recognized show at PSG at n8 years old. I think that, plus the credentials of my mares, and the high number of Premium Foals I produce is proof of my breeding program. And, oh yeah, I bred most of my own broodmare band and have daughters and sisters and nieces of my foundation stock so I know very well, from foal production and show records, what they produce - as do most of the other breeders on this forum.

                                And I don't care if you buy a foal from me, but stop putting American breeders down and thinking you have to go to Europe. Remember!! If you go that route and then start up a breeding business, you will soon become - - gasp!!!! - -one of us. [/LIST]
                                I never said how much I wanted to spend or even that I have to have one out of a mare that has shown FEI (response to another post). I know what I want is expensive, I just want to understand the pricing more. I actually got an email from a breeder a few days ago that wanted 40k for a yearling, but would not even supply a video, instead this breeder prefaced that they would do me a favor even offering it for sale and to allow me to see it if I flew 1,000 miles

                                Oh and I love American bred horses, owning two from here and one from Germany and I respect what all the nice breeders are doing, and those breeders pricing seem logical to me and they have the mares and offspring to back it up.
                                Sorry if its bad grammar or spelling, I'm replying as I sit on a Weltmeyer gelding from Germany

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  In my sillybutt opinion top quality foals in the US are under priced.
                                  I paid 16k in 1999 for a high quality yearling out of an imported premium Holsteiner mare. In 2000 I put my checkbook down and imported my own mare with credentials up the wazoo and a heftily price tag. Today, I could not even consider being able to afford another mare like her at todays prices and yet I keep reading how 15k is a top price for a good foal and people expect to find them at a lower price. I would think that the price of an exceptional foal would go up in 14 years since the cost of everything else has...even with the unfortunate drop in the economy.
                                  While my opinion is worth navel lint I know I can't afford to continue producing and selling at the 'expected' prices....so I will most likely stop producing...this year.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    i would imagine that the OP will be able to find what she wants - at a reasonable price if she looks in places where the breeding farms are able to be more "self sufficient" ie grow their own hay, etc.

                                    it costs a lot more to raise a foal, or just own a horse when it needs to be fed (purchased) hay every day 365 days a year.

                                    so if i were looking i would look to those excellent breeders that had large farms probably in the middle of the country

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #38
                                      Originally posted by mbm View Post
                                      i would imagine that the OP will be able to find what she wants - at a reasonable price if she looks in places where the breeding farms are able to be more "self sufficient" ie grow their own hay, etc.

                                      it costs a lot more to raise a foal, or just own a horse when it needs to be fed (purchased) hay every day 365 days a year.

                                      so if i were looking i would look to those excellent breeders that had large farms probably in the middle of the country
                                      Again, thanks everyone for all the suggestions, I really appreciate it! I have gotten a couple good leads through PM's and I welcome anyone else's suggestions. Also, if anyone has any breeders they recommend, I would appreciate it. How would I go about finding these breeders in the middle of the country? Currently I have been looking at breeders that produce horses I have seen under saddle, so I think that might be why I have not looked over in the area per say. Granted, I got my last horse in Louisiana after exhausting my search in Florida.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        I can't think of a foal that is worth 40K unless it comes with a GOLD halter and leadrope. Anyone selling at that price is not really interested in selling. But then again, you can have 99 buyers laugh at your price, it only take one sucker! There may be a handful that are worth 25-30K...I think of the 2011 KWPN Ravel foal who had amazing scores or the few Totilas foals out there. Maybe a true stallion prospect that impressed the jury too. But I guarantee these special foals are being held back till they are at least started under saddle or not for sale at all. Just like in Europe....they hold the special ones back. Don't be fooled by a fancy stallion in the bloodlines...it is the mare and how well the genetics came together that really matters. And those foals are not for sale until grown usually.

                                        There are well bred foals who turn out to be duds and less than stellar foals who surprise us under saddle....that is why foals should always be within a certain price range (IMO 8k to 15k but some as high as 25k) until they are started under saddle. If a breeder thinks one is special they usually hold onto them to see what happens under saddle or price them high so they don't sell.
                                        From personal experience, a rule of thumb is 8-10K for a in-utero to new foal, 10-12k after inspection, add 2-3K every year, and once backed it is a whole other ball game. Now I don't always get these prices and make exceptions for show homes, breeders, or if I need to get one gone. If one is pretty special or a top five foal, I tag one 1-3K.

                                        I will tell you that if you want to breed down the road, pay very close attention to the marelines...not the stallion! Also, prepare to be disappointed in the American market and buyers constantly going to Europe instead. It has been a long disappointing labor of love that I will most likely walk away from by the end of the year.

                                        Most of the time, it is just a good tax deduction...absolutely no profit. A lot of wonderful moments, but also heartbreak and headache! And buyers always trying to get your foals for bottom dollar.

                                        Had a buyer recently that negotiated my price well below the filly's value, but I am getting out so I accepted. Once here to get the filly, all she could talk about was her 75K horse and her 50K horse, and her fancy life....obviously they had loads of money...it was very disheartening...especially because I took a great loss financially. But that is just part of it.

                                        I think buyers get WAY too caught up in the hype around stallions and fads...they don't put near enough research into what they are buying. But then again....that is America for you!

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          check out these offerings - at least they give you a price range within you can trade. (german database/engl language)
                                          it continouesly grows to a large collection during the foaling season (currently 28 only) with acceptable fotos and acceptable minimum information that can be sorted by sire in alphabetical order. about the most professional sales portal i know and a very good tool to compare what the current (german) market is about:
                                          http://www.fohlenboerse.de/en/list-o...view/6836.html
                                          http://hippologi.com

                                          http://muensterland-pferde.de

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