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What do you think of this cross??

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  • What do you think of this cross??

    Hi Everyone,

    I have been visiting the COTH boards for a very long time now, but just made an account so this will be my first post.. so please bare with me!

    Anyway, I plan on breeding my mare in the spring of 2014, and have been planning on this for a few years now. I researched a ton of stallions, and came across Parcival a few months ago, and still really really like him. I think he might be the one! My favourite thing is that his bloodlines all scream jumper, but hes competitive in the dressage ring! I wondered if you could all comment on whether you think it will be a good cross or not? I can attach pictures of my mare as well.

    Winnie Wonka (my eventer mare) is a 16.1h TB/Connemara, with the most wonderful attitude and personality. She competes Prelim (hopefully upgrading to Intermediate this year), does the jumpers, and the hunters. My goal for the foal is to get a little replica of its mother . But really, I am breeding for my next horse, whom I want to be very versatile with a fun personality.

    Soooo here are pictures from 2012's show season, a conformation, her dad & grandpa http://s770.photobucket.com/user/ecl...20Wonka?page=1

    And Parcival, http://www.parcivalonline.com/
    Or on facebook, http://www.facebook.com/pages/Parciv...e/307287898592

    Tell me anything and everything you think! Pros and cons to the cross, anything you've heard about Parcival.. Im open to it all!! Thanks
    Last edited by eclemins; Apr. 11, 2013, 07:26 PM.

  • #2
    Love your horse, love Parcival. The only hitch is when you have a cross bred such as your mare you never know what might pop up, re type. you might get tb, you might get connemara. . .

    If you event, a jumping bred horse that has the movements for dressage would seem ideal. You already appear to have gameness, bravery and blood with your mare. . .
    Dina
    www.olddominionsaddlery.com
    http://www.facebook.com/olddominionsaddlery Like us on Facebook!!

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    • #3
      Super cute mare! And love Parcival - he is gorgeous!
      I have to echo what toomanyponies said about the cross bred and what type you may end up with though. I would stick with a TB stallion and there are a lot of choices there.
      Fox Haven Farm, Inc.
      Home of 2002 JC Registered stallion Artrageous

      Artrageous has his own Facebook page!

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      • #4
        I might sound like a broken record, but look into Gatsby. He crosses incredibly well on TB mares, refines or puts substance on the mare, depending on whether she's heavier or lighter - in other words, he makes his kids very, very much like himself on bone. Truly. He puts a great temperament on, adds height (if that's what you want, otherwise, probably not the best choice), great feet, and has kids doing Eventing, Jumpers, and Hunters.
        ______________________________
        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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        • #5
          Lovely mare....lovely stallion. Not sure I would do that cross if I wanted a replica of the mare. I think given your mare's breeding, I would stick with more blood. Either TB or almost all TB/AA blood.

          I think Parcival would cross great on a TB mare or on a TB/WB cross mare (I have a Dutch/TB mare that would blend well with him). Given his pedigree, I do not think he will be refining enough on your mare who doesn't really need to be more refined but I wouldn't want any heavier either. (he has a lot of bigger heavier type in there that I worry would show through).

          Have you talked with any of the Connemara breeders to find out about her lines and what crosses well?
          ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

          Comment


          • #6
            As others have said, with a cross bred mare, you really want to stick to something that breeds true - eg TB, AA, Trakehner (or Connemara!).

            Two Trakehner stallions that event themselves and pass on a fabulous temperament are Halimey Go and Tatendrang. Tate will add more height than Hal.
            www.juniperridgeranch.us
            Visit us on Facebook!

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            • #7
              i dont know who they might be, but you might look into a TBxID = irish sport horse - because that would be type to type and you would probably get something similar to what you have.

              I personally would do a lot of research into any TBxConxWB's that are out there.

              I will (hopefully) breeding my WBxTB mare to a CON in the next few years..... and i know of others that have done similar. but it is a crap shoot!

              Comment


              • #8
                I agree with the others on getting too many different "types" in the mix.

                If you want to consider looking at TBs, you might take a look at Sea Accounts. He's making his Intermediate debut next week and also show 4th level with scores to 63% (and gaits scores of 7s and 8s!!)

                He has multiple offspring competing in eventing (mainly lower events at this point due to age) and doing well. He also has a son who will be making is 1.2 m jumping debut this weekend in NJ.
                www.debracysporthorses.com
                Home of Sea Accounts xx
                AHS/HV, ATA, GOV, RPSI, JC, AQHA, APHA, APtHA
                "LIKE" www.facebook.com/SeaAccounts

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                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Thank you everyone for the wonderful replies! I am however, wanting to stay away from Thoroughbreds and Trakehners, due to previous experiences and personal preference! I know it can have a lot to do with how the foal is brought up, trained etc., but I would like to stick to a warmblood.

                  Also just confused on the comments about not being sure if the tb or connie will come out in the foal, I would be happy with either. If I had a tb mare I would be more than willing to breed her to Parcival (as others have said as well). Yes, I agree that perhaps if the foal got more of the Connie genes, it would be a little thick and stocky... But I think the foal would be wonderful either way. Is this the wrong train of thought?

                  Can anyone suggest a warmblood stallion that would then, complement my mare and be very versatile and amateur friendly?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What about Ard Celtic Art? He's a beautiful mover, lovely jumper, and seems to have a great temperament.

                    http://www.hiddencreekhorses.com/our-stallion.html

                    I haven't personally seen any offspring by him. He wouldn't be my first choice for my mare (I don't want gray, and I like TBs/AA/Trak) but he might be just what you're after.
                    “A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.”
                    ? Albert Einstein

                    ~AJ~

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                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Ard Celtic Art is a beautiful boy, I have been watching him for a few years now. Eventually, I would love to lease a tall TB or WB mare and breed her to him, or to Sebastian, but that is a few years down the road.

                      For this foal, I'm not looking to cross with another connemara; my mare is just 16.1 and Id like to foal to be atleast 16h.

                      Perhaps I should reword my statement; Can anyone suggest a tall warmblood stallion that would then, complement my mare, add (or keep) height, and be very versatile and amateur friendly?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        OP, you really should take down those photo PROOFS that you apparently didn't buy. Like it says right on the photo. "Proofs are for viewing only DO NOT COPY". If you did buy them, and for whatever reason the photographer sold you copies as they are, then I apologize for going off on you
                        "Everyone will start to cheer, when you put on your sailin shoes"-Lowell George

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                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Toadie's Mom, the pictures have been bought (I believe i stated that in the comments below the picture.. I'll check now to be sure). I just never scanned the pictures without the copyrights on them as it was easier to take the proofs, but yes, I have bought them from the photographer himself

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Toadie's mom View Post
                            If you did buy them, and for whatever reason the photographer sold you copies as they are, then I apologize for going off on you
                            If you click on the individual photos, there is a comment that photo was bought oddly I recently noticed the same with another (unrelated) set of proofs from the same photographer ...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by eclemins View Post
                              Can anyone suggest a warmblood stallion that would then, complement my mare and be very versatile and amateur friendly?
                              already did - Gatsby And he fits the other criteria of adding or keeping height.

                              There IS an issue with a "thick, stocky" foal if you want to do upper level Eventing, as I wouldn't lay odds that type of horse would go the distance. It could, sure, I just wouldn't count on it. TBx and Connies have been crossed for a long time, then crossed back to blood, and I would wager that the vast majority of them look like 3/4 TBs, not just tall Connies
                              ______________________________
                              The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by JB View Post
                                already did - Gatsby And he fits the other criteria of adding or keeping height.

                                There IS an issue with a "thick, stocky" foal if you want to do upper level Eventing, as I wouldn't lay odds that type of horse would go the distance. It could, sure, I just wouldn't count on it. TBx and Connies have been crossed for a long time, then crossed back to blood, and I would wager that the vast majority of them look like 3/4 TBs, not just tall Connies

                                If your goals are UL eventing...the blood would be the only way to go. I have a Dutch/TB mare. Looks more like a TB...I crossed her to a lovely modern SF sire with a lot of blood. Her first foal...and she is HUGE. Going to top 17 Hands with a ton of substance. Lovely...but not what I was expecting.

                                When you breed with crosses...this is the risk. Even WBs with a lot of blood.

                                But if you are absolutely set on WB...you need to look at something that is very modern in type AND passes that on.

                                And since you said tall....I'd look at Edelweiss de Bonce. Jumper pedigree but did well in dressage. Supposed to pass his wonderful temperment and ridability as well. And he is tall.
                                ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I suggest you go to Irish Horse TV here:
                                  http://irishhorse.tv/breeding-an-event-horse-panel/
                                  and listen to their 4 part series on breeding the Event Horse. They talk about Connies some; they also talk about crossing the Continental Horse on the traditional Irish breeds.

                                  If you don't want the traditional eventing recipe that is common in Ireland and the UK, the SF is, they say, the TB with more heft. The real French SF (or AA) is usually high percentage blood and has a long and storied eventing history. Michael Pollard and Chatsworth Stud own a horse in Germany named Querdolan (something) who is almost all AA. You might find him interesting.
                                  http://chatsworthstud.com/

                                  If you are open to frozen semen, you might be interested in Hunter in California. Holsteiner son of Heraldik xx, but you still will have the "don't know what you'll get" factor.

                                  I used to have a jpeg of a chart showing the wild diversity that is possible when crossing a hybrid to a hybrid. Chart was of corn, but the principles are the same in animals. Your horse is a hybrid, and so are all WBs. There is already a lot of TB in a WB, but the Connemara adds a whole new dimension to the Hybrid.
                                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                  Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                                    If you don't want the traditional eventing recipe that is common in Ireland and the UK, the SF is, they say, the TB with more heft. The real French SF (or AA) is usually high percentage blood and has a long and storied eventing history. Michael Pollard and Chatsworth Stud own a horse in Germany named Querdolan (something) who is almost all AA. You might find him interesting.
                                    http://chatsworthstud.com/

                                    Of course the foal I mentioned above WAS by a SF (a french SF) sire. His semen is not readily available here in the USA. He is close to 70% blood and stamps blood traits.....just my filly looks like she got some serious height on her. I'm hoping she doesn't tank out....but not sure she will not end up more of a show jumper.

                                    With the crosses...it can be hard unless you really know the dam and her family. With a maiden mare....it is really a crap shoot.
                                    ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by eclemins View Post

                                      Can anyone suggest a warmblood stallion that would then, complement my mare and be very versatile and amateur friendly?

                                      i think what some folks are saying is that because your mare is already a mix of two types - tb and con adding another type on top of that (wb) would make it a bit of a coin toss as to what you might get.

                                      so, some, like me - are suggesting that you go with something a bit more similar in type to what you have - ie: an irish sport horse, or similar (and they are bred for eventing!)

                                      you can, of course, breed to the guy you like - there is just no way of predicting what you might get!

                                      you might get a wb with pony legs, or a wb with a pony head, or a horse with a pony neck!

                                      i have seen Cons bred to WBs that produce really really nice horses - and the same two horses also produced something not so nice!

                                      so do a lot of research - go look for the cross you are thinking of doing - see if you can find any out there and see what they look like.

                                      if you want WB you might see if you can find a WB that is a large percentage TB (ie 50% or more) this would give you more TB which is what you need for eventing...

                                      good luck! it is a fun process!

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by eclemins View Post
                                        Winnie Wonka (my eventer mare) is a 16.1h TB/Connemara, with the most wonderful attitude and personality. She competes Prelim (hopefully upgrading to Intermediate this year), does the jumpers, and the hunters. My goal for the foal is to get a little replica of its mother . But really, I am breeding for my next horse, whom I want to be very versatile with a fun personality.
                                        Unless I missed something, the above paragraph is your foal wishlist. It doesn't list type or blood, or necessarily upper level potential, so I'm not sure why you're getting replies that the resulting foal will be too heavy. I do agree with them that you might end up with a 15.2h draft type that will never make time at Intermediate, but if type isn't an important criteria, then who cares?

                                        What I'm reading you do want:
                                        - Wonderful temperament, a horse that's game for anything and everything.
                                        - Jumping ability with good enough form to dabble in the hunters

                                        I don't think Parcival is necessarily a bad choice. But... I don't think he's your best choice for the following reason - his oldest offspring (listed on his website) are just coming 2. Your absolutely, positively must have in this foal is a great temperament. I think you should pick an older stallion with mature offspring that are competing in a multitude of arenas under amateur owners. If Parcival has mature offspring in Europe that you can evaluate then disregard the above

                                        Speaking from my own personal experience. I had a wonderful mare that I rode and competed. Physically she was nice, but her temperament was outstanding and that is why I chose to breed her. When picking out the stallion I picked one based on physical characteristics: his neck set, topline, hock angles, the loft in his stride. Those were the important things to me. I figured the mare was so great and easy that even if the foal was 1/2 as easy and fun he would be super. I was wrong. Physically he was stunning. He was the horse that stopped people in their tracks to watch him go. But he was a miserable pain in the butt! I hated riding him, the vet hated working on him, the farrier hated working on him, the dentist just sedated him , you get the idea. I got so many compliments and had the hardest time taking them because I just thought "I don't care how lofty and uphill he is, or how pretty his face is, I hate riding him!" He wound up sitting in a field for a year and then I just gave him away.



                                        At the moment I can't think of any good suggestions. I'll think on it.

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