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ok color peeps, help me pass the time by educating me on what i might get :)

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  • ok color peeps, help me pass the time by educating me on what i might get :)

    So my brown WB mare (wolkentaz I) is bred to a buckskin sport pony ...

    I know at one time we talked about what colors i might get and when i try to run the info i have thru a color program i get so confused! i dont know which selections to pick etc.

    can one of you help me ? this is just for fun - i really have no preference on color, but i do want to understand the possibilities.

    here is my mare
    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1&l=95b741f3b4

    her dam was brown and her sire of course was chestnut

    the daddy is Manchester City a buckskin - his sire is pally with loads of white and his dam is i believe brown or bay its hard to tell from the pics. i do know there is a lot of brown in his dam line.

    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...5240018&type=1

    I am starting to get veeery excited!

  • #2
    Without knowing either parent's agouti status, here are the probabilities:

    35.16% - Buckskin
    35.16% - Bay or Brown
    12.50% - Palomino
    12.50% - Chestnut
    2.34% - Smoky Black
    2.34% - Black

    If either parent is homozygous for agouti then black and smoky black would fall off that list.
    We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts. ~Harold Nicolson

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      thanks. how do i know agouti status?

      which color generator did you use?

      Comment


      • #4
        You have to test for agouti to know agouti status. (Unless, say, the stallion or the mare has produced a black foal. Then you know you has an a allele.)

        http://www.animalgenetics.us/Agouti.htm

        Easy, cheap!

        Your mare looks like a typical bay horse to me, not brown. So she's got to be:

        Ee, A? (E because she is bay [black-based], e because her sire is chestnut) (A because she is bay, ? because she has not been tested for agouti)

        The sire is:

        Ee, A?, Crcr (E because he buckskin [black-based], e because his sire was palomino [chestnut-based]) (A because he is buckskin, ? because he's not been tested for agouti) (Cr because he is buckskin, cr because he is not perlino)

        So, considering each locus:

        75% chance of black based
        25% chance of chestnut based

        Agouti is a huge unknown, anything from carries two agouti to carries one agouti. (We know we have at least one agouti for both sire and dam because they are both bay/bay based.) Remember agouti is the allele that makes a black based horse bay. It doesn't do anything to a chestnut based horse.

        And then you've got a 50/50 shot of getting that creme on top of whatever color you get.

        What I find frustrating about the color generator is it really doesn't break it down by unknowns. If either the sire or the dam is homozygous for agouti, for example, you have ZERO chance of black or smoky black. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Because if one of them is AA, then your foal WILL have an agouti allele, which means it WILL be bay if it is black-based.

        If you want to have a better idea of what you're going to get, testing the mare for agouti will remove some unknowns. Testing the sire for agouti will remove all unknowns.

        And if testing isn't a possibility, you'll get a better idea of real, actual potentials if you run through all of the agouti potentials one by one, instead of leaving question marks in the calculator. For example, if we call both the sire and dam AA (homozygous for agouti) then this is how it breaks down:

        37.5% Buckskin
        37.5% Bay
        12.5% Palomino
        12.5% Chestnut

        (This is also how it breaks down if ONE is homozygous and one is heterozygous)


        But if they're *both* heterozygous for agouti, this is how it breaks down:

        28.13% Buckskin
        28.13% Bay
        12.5% Palomino
        12.5% Chestnut
        9.38% Smoky Black
        9.38% Black

        See how much changes, based on that one little allele?

        Comment


        • #5
          Uhhh, the mare is most definitely brown So, she's either Ata, or AtAt, and if the theory is true that AtAt horses are usually lighter brown, the odds are better that that she's Ata.
          ______________________________
          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            so if she is brown (which i absolutely agree that she is) how does that change Simkie's very informative scenarios?

            (and see why i get so confused )

            Comment


            • #7
              without a whole lot of manual work, not sure offhand LOL It's very variable at this point not knowing the mare's Extension status, and not knowing the stallion's Agouti status. We know they're both Ee.

              We could assume the mare is Ata.

              The odds of the sire being Aa are better than being AA or AAt, but you can't rule those out.

              Talia's is about as close as you'll get, with the buckskin breaking down by buckskin and smoky brown, just like bay really has to break do by bay and brown
              ______________________________
              The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

              Comment


              • #8
                I guess I am confused about the phenotype for brown What makes this mare brown, JB?

                Without knowing the agouti status, everything I posted earlier still applies, just amend any "bay" or "buckskin" to "bay/brown" and "buckskin/whatever brown + creme is called"

                Comment


                • #9
                  A horse this dark, with the light muzzle and light flank, is a dark seal brown. Not all browns are this dark, some can look bay under the right conditions. Browns tend to have golden/orange undertones, while bays tend to have more red undertones, regardless of shade. Look up A Fine Romance - very classic dark seal brown. Gatsby is near-black - also dark brown. Ummm, who are some others - Don Principe, Shakespear RSF, Pablito, and many others.

                  Mostly, if you see "dark bay", or "black bay", you can be fairly certain they're really brown.
                  ______________________________
                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    veering a bit off topic ...I am still confused about brown too. Is there light brown as well as seal brown? I have a yearling filly I think is brown who was born looking black but it quickly was apparent she was not. She is a milk chocolate color and has no black points on her legs...none. Brown, right?
                    Whispered Wish Weser-Ems: Breeding quality German Riding Ponies!
                    Standing the stallion Burberry
                    www.germanridingpony.com
                    www.facebook.com/HighlifesBurberry

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JB View Post
                      A horse this dark, with the light muzzle and light flank, is a dark seal brown. Not all browns are this dark, some can look bay under the right conditions. Browns tend to have golden/orange undertones, while bays tend to have more red undertones, regardless of shade. Look up A Fine Romance - very classic dark seal brown. Gatsby is near-black - also dark brown. Ummm, who are some others - Don Principe, Shakespear RSF, Pablito, and many others.

                      Mostly, if you see "dark bay", or "black bay", you can be fairly certain they're really brown.
                      Huh. Okay, my dividing line for brown and bay is just in the wrong place, then. I didn't think this mare was really dark enough to be brown, and I saw a lot of red in her coat.

                      When I really studied genetics in depth, the gene for brown hadn't been identified yet and Sponenburg was the biggest expert out there. It's been awhile

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by hluing View Post
                        veering a bit off topic ...I am still confused about brown too. Is there light brown as well as seal brown? I have a yearling filly I think is brown who was born looking black but it quickly was apparent she was not. She is a milk chocolate color and has no black points on her legs...none. Brown, right?
                        Wild bay, maybe? Dark liver chestnut? Do you have pictures?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by hluing View Post
                          veering a bit off topic ...I am still confused about brown too. Is there light brown as well as seal brown?
                          Yes, there are horses who are "light" brown, and often they are very noticably brown as they also have dark brown, instead of black, legs. Here's a light brown with sooty

                          Here's another brown on the lighter side

                          It's all a matter of shading and, as mentioned, possibly whether hetero- or homozygous brown, with the latter theorized to be "lighter" brown.

                          I have a yearling filly I think is brown who was born looking black but it quickly was apparent she was not. She is a milk chocolate color and has no black points on her legs...none. Brown, right?
                          If she was born looking black, but she's not, then yes, brown. Dark, like mine. Did she look similar to this when born? Same guy at 9 months But yes, she sounds brown, fairly dark at that

                          Originally posted by Simkie View Post
                          Huh. Okay, my dividing line for brown and bay is just in the wrong place, then. I didn't think this mare was really dark enough to be brown, and I saw a lot of red in her coat.
                          Some of them can look not quite brown in their Summer coat, which tends to be lighter and with a bit more red. The first shed is usually the best indicator of color when seasonal changes monkey with it, like bleaching. One of these days I'll get my mare tested, as she has several color gurus stumped, as she looks quite bay in Summer, but decidedly brown in Winter LOL

                          When I really studied genetics in depth, the gene for brown hadn't been identified yet and Sponenburg was the biggest expert out there. It's been awhile
                          Hehe, yep, a lot has changed in the past few years!

                          Originally posted by Simkie View Post
                          Wild bay, maybe? Dark liver chestnut? Do you have pictures?
                          Probably not wild bay - they are pretty light, tending often towards a "wild" shade, like they have the dun factor going on. They can be fairly rich red, but most have a bit of a washed out regular bay look. A liver chestnut would still have been born looking very much like a chestnut - wouldn't be mistaken for black
                          ______________________________
                          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            My mare's sire was bay (his sire was blk/brn and his mother chestnut), her mother was a cremello. My mare is sooty buckskin. It looks a lot like a mahogany bay, seal brown, black bay..however, the undercoat is pale yellow rather than reddish. She is very dark. There is also pangare factor. I have no idea how any of the actual genetics work, but it is a pretty amazing color. In the winter her muzzle is light (mealy) and also around her eyes, but in summer it all sheds off, and it is dark. The dapply golden highlights are in all the typical places that a seal brown has them, just not reddish.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater

                              ^^^ is a pic from last week. she is just now completing her winter shed so this is how dark she is "naturally" before it fades....

                              she is dark - like liver brown, i guess? .... with lovely dapples and her flanks etc are golden hued.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by fairtheewell View Post
                                My mare's sire was bay (his sire was blk/brn and his mother chestnut), her mother was a cremello. My mare is sooty buckskin. It looks a lot like a mahogany bay, seal brown, black bay..however, the undercoat is pale yellow rather than reddish. She is very dark. There is also pangare factor. I have no idea how any of the actual genetics work, but it is a pretty amazing color. In the winter her muzzle is light (mealy) and also around her eyes, but in summer it all sheds off, and it is dark. The dapply golden highlights are in all the typical places that a seal brown has them, just not reddish.
                                Picture? She sounds like she could be smoky brown, which is the brown equivalent of buckskin - cream on brown instead of cream on bay

                                Originally posted by mbm View Post
                                https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater

                                ^^^ is a pic from last week. she is just now completing her winter shed so this is how dark she is "naturally" before it fades....

                                she is dark - like liver brown, i guess? .... with lovely dapples and her flanks etc are golden hued.

                                Brown is the color, "seal brown" would be the shade. Lovely!
                                ______________________________
                                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17


                                  pregnancy seems to suit her - she is literally blossoming!

                                  i have to admit that is sure was easier back in the day when we only had a few colors!

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    JB...you clearly know alot about brown. I need to take some recent pics of my filly to show you. She actually looks nothing like the ones you posted. Her legs are much lighter. Someone saw her recently and thought she was a liver chestnut...but they have to look chestnut as foals, right? I feel like a farm of odd colors at the moment, lol.
                                    Whispered Wish Weser-Ems: Breeding quality German Riding Ponies!
                                    Standing the stallion Burberry
                                    www.germanridingpony.com
                                    www.facebook.com/HighlifesBurberry

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      It can be difficult sometimes to tell apart a brown who has brown points (including mane/tail) and a liver chestnut. Usually the pasterns are very telling - other than the very deepest darkest "black livers", there will be tell-tale red hues in the pastern hairs.

                                      And yes, chestnut foals are born looking chestnut (or sometimes so light you might think they're palomino). You'd never suspect a foal is black or brown if he's really chestnut, not at birth, and not unless there is something else going on, such as silver.
                                      ______________________________
                                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                      Comment

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