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Do we need to keep stallions around any longer than necessary???

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  • #41
    No, not WB. He won't be inspected till 4 or more probably, I think the WB people inspect a lot earlier do they?

    Thing is, we just haven't got the facilities to have outside mares here for LC, and I wouldnt honestly want them here anyway. Using him on our own mares couldn't go on indefinitely, obviously, as we will breed ourselves into a corner. That's why its him away to a public stud or gelded after a period of time. It has been mentioned in passing to a large (and good) stud and they were enthusiastic about potentially having him there so that might be the route he goes, but I'm completely open to him being gelded at some stage anyway. He has had enquiries as to what we are doing (ie leaving him entire) from being a foal, and a certain amount of interest for future breeding, so there is a market for him.
    Maybe it would make some people think twice about him but honestly, Im not too worried about that, he will get the mares he gets

    He has got a great personality, if he hadn't he wouldnt get as far as being inspected tbh.

    Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
    I am assuming this is a WB colt? If not, then my comment may not be relevent.

    But if he is a WB, I will tell you my thoughts as a MO.

    If he passes the testing (because for me, that's a given),then I see him several years later out competing as a gelding, it would be a red flag to me. I would assume a temperament issue and stay away from him.

    Ditto if he was not competing at all and soundness was sited as an answer. This changes for a mature horse; one who has been competing for years and has shown he has the stuff. But if a young horse stops shortly after the testing and doesn't do anything else, he would not be on the top of my list.

    So, as a MARKETING aspect, gelding your stallion may just make him look bad.

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    • #42
      Originally posted by aurum View Post
      Sounds like "freeze semen as much as you can and then kill the stallion".... What a horrible thing to imagine!
      How about selling him to some other breeder that can use him for their program?

      That would be one more option, that is how we acquired some of our stallions, from another breeder that was keeping his fillies and itself needed a different stallion.

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by Tamara in TN View Post
        from a livestock point of view he is completely correct...why bother?
        the answer: because they are viewed as semi pets by their owners...
        sometimes to the unfairness of the animal I think

        Tamara
        Goats and sheep are different of course and the results of breeding decisions are apparent sooner but some people say that a breeder should "retire" a buck or ram after 3 breeding seasons. Hopefully he will have produced sons better than himself....use those to breed. And if he hasn't produced better you shouldn't be using him anyway

        Older bucks and rams make excellent Irish stew
        I wasn't always a Smurf
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        • #44
          Gelding is one thing however I find it short sighted. I would more think along the lines of the owners not finding him stallion quality which is why they gelded him. However in other cases, such as Fielding, I believe he was gelded after he was sold to be an Ammy mount for the Hunters? Totally understand not keeping a horse intact if you have no interest in breeding.

          As far as euth'ing him after you had frozen enough? Sickening. If you have that little consideration for the stud you are in the wrong industry. Talk about a throwaway mentality.

          I think that every breeder who culls a horse from their herd needs to look for a riding home first provided the horse is sound. And not just out of your country either.

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          • #45
            If I have enough female offspring of a stallion, I sell the stallion.

            I also think that gelding a stallion looks a bit weird to the clients as most of the time stallions are gelded for temperament reasons.
            Gwendolyn
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            • #46
              But there are a lot of stallions now showing as geldings simply because they are worth more as show geldings than as breeding stallions.

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              • #47
                Seems to me that the prime argument against his position is that Mare Owners who really care (in a perfect future) would want to see the stallion IN THE FLESH. Tom Reed has also talked about the dangers of breeding sight unseen. All records, videos, and photos are subject to editing. You just can't trust digital media to preserve the truth that was originally recorded.

                German WB breeding still seems to be mostly live cover or fresh, FWIW. I simply cannot imagine German mare owners today not wanting to be able to eyeball stallions. And if there is a successful sporthorse breeding country, it is Germany.

                Originally posted by rodawn View Post
                As some stallion owners will honestly admit, there are some stallions who just do not do well if they breed (or collect) and show simultaneously - they can be more edgy, more alert, and have difficulty concentrating and settling down into the work under saddle. Breeding, even AI, carries injury risks to both horse and handler (as we recently heard Totilas suffered a breeding accident severe enough to put an end to showing for the rest of the season).

                I suspect, however, that the OP's friend viewed the topic is far more common than most know.

                There are pros and cons to gelding a stallion and only maintaining frozen as someone above stated - some mares just don't take with frozen and it's nice to have the fresh around - you can increase your customer base by offering both frozen and fresh semen simultaneously (I am among the growing MO trend who prefer strictly frozen and only go to fresh if I absolutely have to because of the mare). Certain mare owners will always wonder, sometimes out loud on forums such as this, as to why he was gelded (was it temperament, was it this, was it that?).

                On the other hand, stallions take specific care and attention and if an owner doesn't have time for that or they cannot afford to keep him at a stallion collection center, then they should either sell him to someone who can give the boy the proper care and attention he needs, or geld him.

                I personally have moral difficulty with killing the stallion just because you got what you needed from him (a bunch of frozen semen). If that sort of decision needs to be made, I would rather he be gelded and sold to go on to have a productive full life.
                "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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                • #48
                  Keeping stallions around

                  OK I understand both the economic and emotional side, and have to say that I am so emotional I keep chickens who don't lay eggs any more and still feed them until God takes them. So I am not one who would destroy a horse to save on hay!

                  Thisdiscussion reminded me of a rather humourous line that someone told me years ago. It was in reference to keeping too many TB stallions standing at stud.

                  "If we would geld most of the horses and half of the trainers racing would be better off."

                  I still find that amusing. Sorry.

                  The reality is that too many horses are kept as stallions who should be gelded, and too many maes, who shouldn't be bred at all, are bred. The result is mediocrity, and too many horses.

                  OK carry on...
                  http://www.herselffarm.com
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                  "Grief is the price we all pay for love," Gretchen Jackson (1/29/07) In Memory of Barbaro

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by danceronice View Post
                    Well, with AI, he does have a point, if you can freeze it, once you collect a lot you DON'T really NEED the stallion, and keeping a gelding around wouldn't save you on hay.

                    But that's putting an awful lot of trust in nothing ever happening to the holding conditions (freezer comes unplugged, containers leak, who knows what else Murphy's Law could come up with), if you euthed the stud or gelded him, no replacements.
                    This is an excellent point. A friend of mine collected & froze her Teke stallion, because she wanted to do endurance and he was being a pill. All the semen was stored in the CSU lab -- the one that burned almost to the ground.

                    Virtually all the semen was destroyed. Lesson learned -- put the stuff in several different areas.

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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Lynnwood View Post
                      There are plenty of stallions who have passed and even won stallion inspections etc that have gone on to be sold/gelded. Ruiz Soler is one. He was sold $$$$ to the US and was competing with a junior. http://s56.beta.photobucket.com/user...nored.jpg.html

                      Most certainly not a temperament issue.
                      Or Hilltop Cordini. I think Hilltop sold him because they got another stallion from the same line. Not sure when he was gelded, but several years down the line he ended up as a friend's daughter's long stirrup horse. He is now retired and living in her backyard. There's an article someplace online - http://stablemanagement.com/articles/on-the-way-down/
                      The Evil Chem Prof

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                      • #51
                        The problem with Tom's breeding choices from Morningside is that he is weighing all of his mare culling decisions on what the mare produces year after year. If she produces one mediocre foal, according to Tom(that could still be extremely fancy and a winning horse in a few years!); she is automatically put on the watch list. Any genetics person would cringe at his breeding tactics because the mare only supplies 50% of her genes to the foal while the remaining talent comes from the stallion (which was Tom's decision to use on the mare in the first place!). I looked at their website and saw the huge list of mares on the page and I often wonder how many mare's Tom goes through in order to get a foal (which at that age is no real base for judgement on talent in the show arena) which is to his tastes. I find it incredibly odd that Tom puts such hefty cull decisions on his mares for what they foal-out every year without weighing any consideration on the stallion he chose to use on the mare. Everyone knows breeding is a crap shoot and the wrong stallion choice for a mare could give you a less athletic foal. I just find it incredibly wrong that Tom is placing all of his wrong breeding decisions on his mares without taking any accountability for what he chose to breed her to and whether or not that was, in all honesty, the right choice.

                        In response to the forzen vs cull decision. It's already in place in the livestock industry with pigs, sheep, dairy, and beef. There is always a supply of new genetics to fill the spots of those males leaving for the meat market; especially in the dairy and beef industries where A.I. is king. Unfortunately; like stated before, bulls are very dangerous (especially Dairy) and only the far superior bulls who are easy to work with and have produced well beyond their barn-mates can be found in retirement because they've been around so long that most people within the company actually get attached. As far as Stallions are concerned this logic is horribly wrong. If he was stellar enough to produce frozen supplies of semen then there is no reason why he can't be gelded and/or compete into his later years and give someone lots of happiness.

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                        • #52
                          Originally posted by daisycutter87 View Post
                          I find it incredibly odd that Tom puts such hefty cull decisions on his mares for what they foal-out every year without weighing any consideration on the stallion he chose to use on the mare.
                          But he is limited to his stallions. So, while he does give away mares that produce decent but not great foals with his stallions, it isn't as though he's going to breed a mare to 10 different stallions waiting for the *right* nick. He knows his stallions and his mares and if a mare doesn't produce even decently when she "should", then he chooses not to allow her be a part of the ever growing number of 'let's breed her because she has a well bred uterus' production line that results in poor quality horses.

                          That's a correct business decision. One could also argue it's an ethical position.
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                          • #53
                            Originally posted by skydy View Post
                            Which "him" are you referring to?

                            Tom? Or the OP's "stallion euther"?
                            The comment was intended as light hearted humour ....

                            If he passes the testing (because for me, that's a given),then I see him several years later out competing as a gelding, it would be a red flag to me. I would assume a temperament issue and stay away from him.
                            It shouldn't though as all they have done is remove the testosterone and considering the majority of their sons are gelded we need to focus on the stallions ability to perform and pass on performance. If removing the testosterone factor enables the stallion to focus and perform better then all we can assume is that the former stallion was unable to cope with being a stallion and a performance horse, it doesn't neccesarily mean that the stallion had temperament issues.

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                            • #54
                              BUT with that being said; who is to say that Tom's stallions ARE in fact the right fit for that particular mare. It's a known fact that any stallion, bull, boar, ram, etc will sire less than mediocre foals. True, he only has a few stallions, but whos to say that those select few stallions are going to produce foal after foal and foal that is what he expects. The bottom line: they are not. So he's taking it out on the mare. It is not the mare's job to make up for what the stallion lacks. It's also not fair to turn to JUST the mare when you're not completely 100% thrilled with the result; being as nitpicky as you can possibly be. If he has 3 stallions on the farm; who is to say those select few stallions are the right fit for every mare in his herd. They're not. What I don't understand is if those mares are not working for his few stallions; why not find them a home with job or a breeder who might have a better fit. Looking at the mare and saying she isn't transmitting is not the answer because he isn't putting any consideration on the sire. Just because you "know your sires well" doesnt mean they are the right sire for the mares. Evaluate the entire situation you put the mare into. Just because he thought it was a good mating decision does not mean it's destined to turn out that way

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                              • #55
                                "But he is limited to his stallions. So, while he does give away mares that produce decent but not great foals with his stallions, it isn't as though he's going to breed a mare to 10 different stallions waiting for the *right* nick. He knows his stallions and his mares and if a mare doesn't produce even decently when she "should", then he chooses not to allow her be a part of the ever growing number of 'let's breed her because she has a well bred uterus' production line that results in poor quality horses.

                                That's a correct business decision. One could also argue it's an ethical position"

                                Many of his stallions are unproven stallions he owns and only approved in his own stud book - for example, he bred many of his 30 some mares to a Contender stallion he purchased that was not approved in Holstein. And of course it presumes that a mare and foal have the correct environment and it presumes that he can determine international athletic quality before they actually jump a course. So who knows whether it is a correct business decision---(and I am one that has no ethical problem putting a horse down when they likely to end up in a bad place if they are passed on.)

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by omare View Post
                                  Many of his stallions are unproven stallions he owns and only approved in his own stud book - for example, he bred many of his 30 some mares to a Contender stallion he purchased that was not approved in Holstein. And of course it presumes that a mare and foal have the correct environment and it presumes that he can determine international athletic quality before they actually jump a course. So who knows whether it is a correct business decision---(and I am one that has no ethical problem putting a horse down when they likely to end up in a bad place if they are passed on.)
                                  Fair enough
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                                  • #57
                                    It is interesting to read some of the comments and opinions about my breeding program and practices. There are a number of inaccuracies I would like to correct:

                                    1) If you read the culling article carefully I state that a mare gets put on the watch list if the foal is in the bottom 10%, not if it is "mediocre". I certainly do take into account the wisdom of my own breeding decisions; I do not put all responsibility on the mare. And the number of mares I have euthanized for producing several seriously incorrect foals is very small; it is much much common for me to give the mare away to a friend.

                                    2) I use my own stallions and outside stallions approved or recognized by the Warmblood Studbook of Ireland (WSI).

                                    3) Under my ownership stallions that I bred or purchased have been approved a total of 19 times by studbooks OTHER THAN the Warmblood Studbook of Ireland. When WSI was approved in 2009 I stopped submitting stallions to outside studbooks.

                                    4) The young Holsteiner stallion by Contender referred to above was NOT "not approved". He was supposed to go to the fall keuring but could not go because of a minor but untimely eye injury. He then was invited to the after keuring but a minor splint made him sore at the wrong time. It is of no value for me to have him approved by Holstein or by any studbook other than WSI so he was brought to Ireland.

                                    5) Two of the young stallions I bred were the first Irish-bred stallions to pass the stallion performance test in Germany. These were the first two young stallions to be approved by WSI.

                                    6) Yes, I believe I am able to predict which foals will become successful international jumpers and which will not.

                                    7) In November 2011 I computed Morningside Stud's "strike rate" for producing CSI showjumpers and CIC/CCI eventing horses. Of all horses I bred from 2000 - 2005 (i.e., old enough to be starting in international sport) 21% were international athletes. Of all the foals I bred that were still alive, 26% were international athletes. And of all the foals I bred that were still alive and not being used as broodmares, 38% were international athletes.


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