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Do we need to keep stallions around any longer than necessary???

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  • #21
    This is the way it was done here, you keep one promising colt as a stallion, use him for several years, then start keeping his fillies to breed from, so you geld him and use another stallion next.

    The sorrel third from the left was started like all other colts and used as a ranch horse, although kept as a stallion until ten, then gelded and made a great ranch gelding.
    The palomino was one of his first foals and we had several of his daughters, that we also rode and then kept as broodmares.
    I think that each different part of the horse industry handles the breeding end as it fits them best.
    It does seem strange to have a very good stallion that, if you don't need him any more as a stallion, could not make a very nice gelding.
    Gelding a stallion is considered good animal husbandry, as it makes them easier to manage once they are not needed for breeding any more.
    Horses being horses, they don't stand there as geldings wishing they were still stallions:
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    • #22
      You are talking about stallions that are not being culled-- they are being replaced by their frozen. You have not said that the stallion was inferior. you are mixing apples and oranges.

      i dont know what Reed's article has to do with this discussion--that is about culling. Culling is about getting rid (however) of horses a breeder thinks is inferior. You are now judging people because they did not want to pay thousands to ship someones reject (whether poorly raise, bad luck, or thought out- who knows) because of that breeder's arbitary decision that they could not stay in ireland even though he considers himself an "international breeder?

      And I disagree people dont do it because the stallion is a pet--I hardly think VDL etc consder their stallions pets.

      But go ahead--whose to know.


      • #23
        Originally posted by Fillabeana View Post
        If I were looking at a stallion to produce a child/amateur friendly (and thus very marketable) foal, I would consider it a huge plus if an amateur or child was showing the (former) stallion -as a gelding- successfully.
        Hilltop Cordini was such a horse and I was just as impressed with his after gelding career as his stallion career and happily used his frozen.

        I agree with others, gelding is one thing, euth. is another. Frozen is not very viable for many people without access to vets well trained in its use and can mean flushing large sums of money. I also have a mare who reacts to frozen. So there will always be a need for fresh.
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        • #24
          Well, with AI, he does have a point, if you can freeze it, once you collect a lot you DON'T really NEED the stallion, and keeping a gelding around wouldn't save you on hay.

          But that's putting an awful lot of trust in nothing ever happening to the holding conditions (freezer comes unplugged, containers leak, who knows what else Murphy's Law could come up with), if you euthed the stud or gelded him, no replacements.
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          • #25
            Originally posted by SnicklefritzG View Post
            "I love hearing of 30+year old stallions still around! I think it shows good care and the horse is still enjoying life. "

            I went to the KY horse park a number of years ago and got to see Cigar and John Henry along with a few other famous stallions. Even the ones who were getting on in years still looked absolutely fabulous. It's a testament to their athletic ability and good care that they could look so good at such an age.
            John Henry was most assuredly *not* a famous stallion....

            And Cigar was sterile....
            "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

            ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


            • #26
              Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
              John Henry was most assuredly *not* a famous stallion....

              And Cigar was sterile....
              Nor is Funny Cide and many of the other residents. Old Friends would be a better example of a place that shows off retired stallions to the public.
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              • #27
                Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
                Nor is Funny Cide and many of the other residents. Old Friends would be a better example of a place that shows off retired stallions to the public.
                The point of mentioning John Henry and Cigar is to say that just because a horse is old doesn't mean that it necessarily has to look it (unless you check its teeth). They may not have been the easiest horses to deal with but they did a lot for the racing community and were well taken care of in their retirement, unlike Ferdinand and supposedly the horses referred to in the OP's original comments.


                • #28
                  As pointed out a LOT can happen to your stored semen so if the horse was good enough to be a stallion in the first place then perhaps a back up plan is in order! Some stallions never reproduce themselves in their sons either, there may never be a replacement from that line. A lot depends on the stallion. If he is dangerous then yes I'd certainly geld him and hopefully that would take care of it. If not only then would euthanasia be considered. If you only ever breed a few mares from a stallion then this isn't a bad course of action but GELDING is the answer, not knocking him in the head! You can probably split your semen storage up into a couple different places and if it is lost then you probably can do OK with another stallion. If you are breeding 50-100 mares a year profitably then you better not kill the goose just because you have a nice stack of golden eggs!!

                  Of course racehorses are out of the loop in this argument and don't get me started on that!

                  People get so egocentric they think that if an animal isn't good for THEM (or in extension, their discipline) then he isn't any good to anyone else. At least give the bloody horse a chance at a new owner or new career!! Many TB mares and stallions are shipped to slaughter because the owner has no idea they would be snapped up by other breeds/disciplines. And they don't want to bother to sell them, it's just so much easier to load them into a truck.

                  The man who thinks he is righteous for offering his culled mares to outside countries of course KNEW how incredibly expensive it would be to transport them elsewhere so that isn't much of an argument. If he actually did put them down well, that is dumb money wise but I guess it's his choice. If he sent them to slaughter then well it's still dumb money wise but again his choice. Doesn't make him much of a horseman or a businessman though. I sure wouldn't give up on a mare with so few foals esp. since the stallion is responsible for half of the foal. Maybe HE chose the wrong stallions for her!

                  Of course he could have made more money and probably improved the local WB stock by selling them in most cases (some really should be culled from breeding!) BUT of course he does not want those horses out there breeding competition with HIS program. Particularly if somebody else happened to find the magic nick for her. Might make him look stupid, that ego thing again.
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                  • #29
                    As the owner of a 25 year old TB who thinks he is a 3 year old, I agree they don't always look their age. Even if they do, it doesn't mean they are garbage however. Few things are better than a great old horse except for maybe a great old dog.
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                    • #30
                      Having a backup plan in case a liquid nitrogen tank goes bad and you lose your stock of frozen semen is a great idea. But you could more easily store frozen semen in two or three physical locations, than feed a stallion.


                      • #31
                        well the wording is "longer than necessary"
                        that leaves volumes of room for specific meaning
                        in a purely technical world there is no need of a breeding stallion once you have his semen...hell you would not really need the mare either after sufficient flushes all you'd need were some surrogate mares and you could play genetic mastermind for decades

                        a very good friend of mine keeps a herd of Pathfinder Angus (read: the ELITE cows of the largest breed in America) he just sold some old frozen semen from a bull that has been dead some 20 years...and even dead 20 years it was better than the average stock out there...

                        (there are tanks that have semen still from bulls from the beginning of the technology but they are generations outdated in their EPDs) and horses lack proved EPDs for standardized comparisons one to another so there is a need to actually see the living animal...does any one use semen from horses dead twenty years? that would be an interesting subject
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                        • #32
                          Feeling impish.. why don't we just do the same for the male population! lets start with him!


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by L&L View Post
                            Feeling impish.. why don't we just do the same for the male population! lets start with him!
                            Which "him" are you referring to?

                            Tom? Or the OP's "stallion euther"?


                            • #34
                              There's also the issue that if you do away with them too early, how do you know if they are going to develop some issue in older age that might make them less than desirable as a breeding stallion.

                              We could be propagating entire lines of horses that develop some syndrome that makes them keel over at 14, for instance


                              • #35
                                Sounds like "freeze semen as much as you can and then kill the stallion".... What a horrible thing to imagine!
                                Exceptional colored German WBs, TBs and Arabians


                                • #36
                                  Last edited by Kyzteke; Mar. 11, 2013, 08:06 AM. Reason: that stupid "reply w/Quote" button didn't work


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by Loopy View Post
                                    We have a colt here we are planning to have inspected when he's ready, and (fingers crossed he does well) we plan to have semen frozen from him for use on our own mares and for sale purposes.
                                    We do not intend to keep him forever at our place as we do not have the facilities (and I don't have the inclination) to have outside mares here for LC and it would be a shame not to have him used.
                                    The options are to send him away to public stud or there is a possibility we would have him gelded once we have a store of semen. Bumping him on the head isn't an option...
                                    We already have a large store of frozen semen from living and dead stallions (no suspicious circs. that I know of ), and are happy to use frozen on our own mares.
                                    I am assuming this is a WB colt? If not, then my comment may not be relevent.

                                    But if he is a WB, I will tell you my thoughts as a MO.

                                    If he passes the testing (because for me, that's a given),then I see him several years later out competing as a gelding, it would be a red flag to me. I would assume a temperament issue and stay away from him.

                                    Ditto if he was not competing at all and soundness was sited as an answer. This changes for a mature horse; one who has been competing for years and has shown he has the stuff. But if a young horse stops shortly after the testing and doesn't do anything else, he would not be on the top of my list.

                                    So, as a MARKETING aspect, gelding your stallion may just make him look bad.


                                    • Original Poster


                                      My thoughts exactly.

                                      To see an inspected stallion that was gelded as soon as he passed his inspection, that only had frozen available, would SCREAM temperament / rideability and possibly soundness issues to me and I would steer clear far far away ...

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                                      • #39
                                        But suppose the stallion got 10s for character and temperament and rideability during the testing?
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                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by TrueColours View Post

                                          My thoughts exactly.

                                          To see an inspected stallion that was gelded as soon as he passed his inspection, that only had frozen available, would SCREAM temperament / rideability and possibly soundness issues to me and I would steer clear far far away ...
                                          There are plenty of stallions who have passed and even won stallion inspections etc that have gone on to be sold/gelded. Ruiz Soler is one. He was sold $$$$ to the US and was competing with a junior. http://s56.beta.photobucket.com/user...nored.jpg.html

                                          Most certainly not a temperament issue.
                                          "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"