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1st "clean out" collection of the year for stallions ...

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  • 1st "clean out" collection of the year for stallions ...

    Friend of mine stands stallions that they only do Live Cover with. We were talking yesterday and I said I need to collect my stallion today or tomorrow for a "clean out collection" as I need to do a "real collection" on Friday

    He looked at me like I had 2 heads and said "Whatever for? Girl - you need to get a hobby if you are collecting him just to "clean him out" and burst out laughing

    He's stood stallions for decades and said he has no better or worse conception record from the first mare covered each year than any in between or at the end of breeding season and the first mares covered in February / March by his stallions are usually in foal and that stallion hasnt been used for breeding since last May or June

    So - other than wanting to perhaps look at the semen itself and numbers, why do we follow the protocol to do a "clean out collection" at the start of each breeding season if the live cover stallion owners dont follow this protocol at all and have "0" problems in getting their mares in foal by not doing so?

    Just curious what the general consenus is on this one ...
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  • #2
    I've never heard of a clean out collection! Lol! I would be curious to see the numbers between the two though....
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    • #3
      Pretty simple really
      When shipping semen you only ship a small portion of the collected semen and the chance is that not only you will have more dirt in it after not cleaning and collecting a while but possibly a little less motility. That does not matter when doing live cover as the mare will be bred with all of it which may be 20 times the optimal dose.
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      • #4
        Yep, "hump and dumps" are the norm with the stallion owners I know.
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        • #5
          Working with a TB and an Arab breeder that shipped out a lot so I only have those two farms to go by. We never did a "clean out" in the spring. Prep cleaning of the stallion "bits" before collection but never a false collection that was to be a waste. Sperm is naturally cycled out every few hours all by its self, regardless of the season so this seems like an odd practice to me.

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          • #6
            We always do a "blow out" before season starts. Several reasons...

            1. Need clean semen for shipping
            2. Want to check motility etc especially for the older stallions

            We don't do live cover so this is protocol for all of our stallions.

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            • Original Poster

              #7
              Interesting to hear everyone's take on this

              Before I got my own phantom, every place that I collected the stallions at, asked to have me bring them in at the start of the season to "clean them out" so I just *assumed* this was normal protocol with everyone with all stallions

              And now with having the phantom at home, its easy enough to "hump and dump" as CM so eloquently put it so Ive always just followed the same protocol
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              • #8
                I don't own or stand a stallion but my thoughts are that most people that do LC are covering the mares about 2 times times per heat cycle so the first cover could almost be considered a "clean out" collection. Where the second cover is usually closer to the ovulation (day 5) and when you want to best sperm. Don't know if this is true but it would be my thoughts on why his stats for the first mare was the same as another mare later in the season.
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                • #9
                  I always do clean outs as well. I have one stallion who's first collection of the year generally looks bad, and every one from there on out looks AWESOME. It's just a practice that I've always been told to do, so it's just one of those things that is done to prepare for breeding season.
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                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Cindys Warmblood - no way on the multiple covers if we can at all help it for Live Cover! We want them jumping up on their backs as little as possible for many reasons - risk of someone or something getting hurt, and depleting resources unecessarily. Especially when we are balancing collections with live covers on the same day, the last thing on earth we need to do is have to cover a mare more than once. So between teasing and ultrasounds, we nail the live covers as close to ovulation as we possibly can

                    Also - in many cases, the mare owners truck the mares in from pretty far away, we cover and they go home again right after so there is no easy provision to cover again 2 days later

                    Nope - another one of those fallacies that live covers get done any more than AI does per cycle ...
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                    • #11
                      I have used my clean out collections on my own mares - so I have compared progressive motility count - last year, clean out was 70%, subsequent ranged between 85 and 90% (post extender for all numbers), if that helps. I would never ship out a clean out, but we used it on two different mares last year - one mare ovulated 5 days later and we had a pregnancy on that clean out collection. Every stallion is different - some have dirtier clean outs, some have lower motility, but in general, I would hope anyone who is shipping semen would use the "hump and dump" protocol.

                      I think it is more important when you are using AI - during a live cover, the entire ejac goes in the mare - so even if there are clumps, in general, there are plenty of live sperm, and they are headed up the river right away, versus going into a tube and shipping for 24 hours.

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                      • #12
                        Live cover stallions are also not necessarily used to a phantom or AV so it would be a potentially complicated event for them to do a clean out every season.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TrueColours View Post
                          Cindys Warmblood - no way on the multiple covers if we can at all help it for Live Cover! We want them jumping up on their backs as little as possible for many reasons - risk of someone or something getting hurt, and depleting resources unecessarily. Especially when we are balancing collections with live covers on the same day, the last thing on earth we need to do is have to cover a mare more than once. So between teasing and ultrasounds, we nail the live covers as close to ovulation as we possibly can

                          Also - in many cases, the mare owners truck the mares in from pretty far away, we cover and they go home again right after so there is no easy provision to cover again 2 days later

                          Nope - another one of those fallacies that live covers get done any more than AI does per cycle ...
                          But is that how your friend does it? I would bet that the vast majority of live cover situations, across the breeding spectrum, are done without many ultrasounds (if any). There are certainly a ton of stock-horse breeders in my area who are pasture breeding or doing live cover and the majority of those mares never see an ultrasound, unless their owner decides to have them preg. checked early on. Many live cover situations are a standard "breed every-other-day until she is out of heat" operation.
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                          • #14
                            TrueColours anyone that I know that does LC does it day 3 and day 5 and there are NO ultrasounds. So these were the breeders I was referring in regards to and figured the OP was referring to as well. Heck most have never ultrsounded a mare and just tease back, if the don't come into heat they are considered pregnant and twins are never checked for. I don't say I approve of this I was just stating that almost everyone I know that does LC this is the way they do it and feel that the OP friend might do it this way as well.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Cindy's Warmbloods View Post
                              TrueColours anyone that I know that does LC does it day 3 and day 5 and there are NO ultrasounds. So these were the breeders I was referring in regards to and figured the OP was referring to as well. Heck most have never ultrsounded a mare and just tease back, if the don't come into heat they are considered pregnant and twins are never checked for. I don't say I approve of this I was just stating that almost everyone I know that does LC this is the way they do it and feel that the OP friend might do it this way as well.
                              I take it you have never been to KY or any other area reputable TB breeding farm. The vet is there from morning to night throughout the entire season with his arm up the nether-regions. My mare was ultrasounded so many times that she got to the point that she would ground tie so I could stand in the back and look at the scan with the vet. The horses you deal with may have valuable semen but many of the TBs have liquid platinum. They don't want to waste a drop that they don't have to. Not everyone who breeds horses that aren't warmbloods are yahoos.
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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
                                I take it you have never been to KY or any other area reputable TB breeding farm. The vet is there from morning to night throughout the entire season with his arm up the nether-regions. My mare was ultrasounded so many times that she got to the point that she would ground tie so I could stand in the back and look at the scan with the vet. The horses you deal with may have valuable semen but many of the TBs have liquid platinum. They don't want to waste a drop that they don't have to. Not everyone who breeds horses that aren't warmbloods are yahoos.
                                Wow. "Yahoos". In Alberta, like anywhere else, there are some HUGE breeding farms here running into the thousands of acres of land, some standing millionaire stallions - TB, SB, world champion QH, WB, Arab, and the biggest millionaires of all are Calgary Stampede's bucking stallions. There are still many breeders who use live cover who do indeed still cover twice without using a vet and without using a machine. This does not make them yahoos because they choose not to use your modern and more expensive methodologies. Some of these farms prefer not to spend $100k on vet fees covering their own mares when the various stallions teasing can provide just as much information. I'm quite sure the option is available to have the vet present for visiting mares, because naturally the mare owner pays for it, or if the client wants shipped semen (obviously for all other breeds except TB),because again, the mare owner pays for it.
                                Last edited by rodawn; Mar. 7, 2013, 06:08 PM.
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                                • #17
                                  So do they just wait to see if the mares come back into heat or do they bother to ultrasound to confirm pregnancies? or check for twins?
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                                  • #18
                                    I can speak to what I witnessed on the very large ranch near to us. Their philosophy can be summed up in a sentence - why bother bring out the vet if the mare is in raging heat? After she's covered and she doesn't come back into heat, then the vet is there checking and/or pinching any twin occurrences. It's not because they're broke either. You don't ooze money by wasting your cash on frivolous vet visitations. They are savvy, but generous business-minded people and I have learned some things from them. Nice people.
                                    Last edited by rodawn; Mar. 7, 2013, 06:29 PM. Reason: typo
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                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      But is that how your friend does it? I would bet that the vast majority of live cover situations, across the breeding spectrum, are done without many ultrasounds (if any).
                                      Maybe in large ranch situations and/or in pasture breeding situations, but I know one TB farm that I put my overflow LC mares at a few years back, had the vet in every single morning at 7:00 am and he stayed until everything was U/S and was then back out the next morning to do the same. I loved it - because there were so many to do there, the U/S were $15.00 each so you didnt mind if he U/S every day and chased that follicle to ovulation - it was perfectly affordable. And we only ever bred once and that was it - no Day 3 and 5 at all ... and having said that, many times the mare is not remotely ready on day 3 and you stand a very real chance of getting yours or the stallions head kicked in if you even try
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                                      • #20
                                        I know one breeder who discovered that her stallion needed a good "clean out" at each breeding. How? For live cover, when the mare teased well, the stallion would cover her in the morning and again in the evening. For AI, he'd go to a facility and be collected once. The conception rate with live cover was amazingly good, while not so good with AI. Eventually, when collecting the stallion they'd send him over in the morning, he'd do it once, wait a few hours and do it again, and only the second collection would be used. That got his AI conception rate up pretty close to his live cover rate.
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