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RESULTS ARE IN!! ANOTHER color prediction question!!

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  • RESULTS ARE IN!! ANOTHER color prediction question!!

    I've searched for the excellent threads on color but couldn't find it! Just curious (and a little bit excited) about a breeding this year and what it might produce.

    Our chestnut mare has been bred to:
    a bay & produced a chestnut
    same bay & produced a bay
    a bay & produced a bay
    a chestnut and produced a chestnut (no brainer)
    a black & produced a black (still born at 8 months)

    We're breeding to Everdale this spring (black) & hoping for a black. Everdale has Lord Leatherdale and Negro in his background. The mare has lots of chestnut relatives.

    So, what do you think? Will we finally get our black foal or more likely a bay?
    Last edited by eggbutt; Mar. 5, 2013, 07:01 PM.

  • #2
    Well, you don't know the mare's agouti status. She produced a black, so you know she's got at least one non-agouti allele. Since all of her bay foals have been by bay stallions, she *might* have zero agouti alleles. Or she could have one.

    Everdale's dam is chestnut, which means he is Ee (carries the chestnut allele.)

    So, you have 50% chance of a black-based foal and 50% chance of a chestnut-based foal.

    If your mare DOES NOT carry any agouti allele, then you have 50% chance of black and 50% chance of chestnut.

    If your mare DOES have an agouti allele, then you have 25% chance of black, 25% chance of some sort of bay and 50% chance of chestnut.

    You can test for agouti, if you'd like to nail it down.

    Comment


    • #3
      No idea but good luck with your black, I hope you get what you want Have you tried that colour calculator thats on the internet?

      (This year we are expecting one to be born black and go grey, one not bothered but will probably be bay, and the last one we are wanting a black too)

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Thank y'all! How would I go about getting her tested just for fun? Is is expensive? Regardlesss, the Everdale is quite exciting for this mare so even if it isn't black, it will be loved and cherished.

        Comment


        • #5
          The chestnut mare's chestnut relatives are irrelevant for this situation

          Everdale is heterozygous for black, meaning you have a 50% chance at chestnut.

          It's unknown the mare's Agouti status, though we know she's not AA. At best she's Aa, but could be aa.

          If she's aa, then you can't get bay from Everdale, unless he's really dark brown (though he does truly look black), in which case you could get another brown. If she's aa and he is also aa, then it's 50/50 chestnut or black.

          If she's Aa, then if her A is A (bay) or At (brown), then you have a 25% chance bay or brown, and the remaining 25% chance of black.
          ______________________________
          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by eggbutt View Post
            Thank y'all! How would I go about getting her tested just for fun? Is is expensive? Regardlesss, the Everdale is quite exciting for this mare so even if it isn't black, it will be loved and cherished.
            Not expensive!

            You can do it here: http://www.horsetesting.com/Equine.asp

            Although they don't do brown. JB, who has the test for At? I forget...

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Dang, y'all are amazing. I wish I knew this as well as you do. Fascinating information for sure.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                OK....great website but I have no idea what to ask for or test for! So many options. Would I just test for red/black factor, red/black factor agouiti combo or what would you suggest?

                Comment


                • #9
                  You just need to test for agouti. You know the mare is ee (red factor) because she is chestnut. She cannot be anything else.

                  http://www.horsetesting.com/Agouti.htm

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Pet DNA Services of Arizona is the only place that tests for brown, and for horses, the brown test is the ONLY test they do
                    ______________________________
                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Ah-ha. I could not turn them up in my googling at all!

                      (Wow, they're pricy!)

                      Question for you, JB: if I have a horse that tested Aa through Animal Genetics, is it possible that she could be AAt? I ask purely for my own curiosity

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Alrighty then.....as I figure it, we have a 50% chance of a black, a 50% chance of a chestnut and a 50% chance of a dark bay. It's easier to know it will NOT be grey!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by eggbutt View Post
                          Alrighty then.....as I figure it, we have a 50% chance of a black, a 50% chance of a chestnut and a 50% chance of a dark bay. It's easier to know it will NOT be grey!
                          Well, that adds up to 150%, which isn't possible

                          If the mare has a "bay gene" then you have 50% chance of chestnut, 25% chance of black and 25% chance of bay.

                          If she doesn't have a bay gene, then it's 50/50 black/chestnut.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            According to the calculator: 33.34% -Black 33.34% -Bay 33.33% -Chestnut


                            Animal Genetics offers testing too -- reasonably priced. http://www.animalgenetics.us/Agouti.htm

                            Have fun!
                            Piaffe Girl -- Dressage. Fashionably.
                            http://piaffegirl.wordpress.com/
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                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DancingFoalFarms View Post
                              According to the calculator: 33.34% -Black 33.34% -Bay 33.33% -Chestnut
                              Nope.

                              Let's review our Punnett squares:

                              Sire: Eeaa (Black, carrying chestnut, no agouti)
                              Dam: eeaa (Chestnut, no agouti)
                              or
                              Dam: eeAa (Chestnut, one agouti)

                              Eeaa X eeaa=

                              50% Eeaa (black)
                              50% eeaa (chestnut)

                              Eeaa X eeAa=

                              25% EeAa (bay)
                              25% Eeaa (black)
                              25% eeaa (chestnut, not a bay carrier)
                              25% eeAa (chestnut, bay carrier)

                              But no matter what, you have 50% chance of a red-based foal (chestnut, in this case) and a 50% chance of a black-based foal (that 50% could be 100% black or 50/50 black/bay, depending on the dam's bay status.)

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Thank you for your clarification and the reminder to review my Punnett Squares. I was using the Animal Genetics color calculator: http://www.animalgenetics.us/ccalculator1.asp Since the OP noted some unknowns regarding which horse was a carrier of which gene, I specified the following:
                                Sire
                                Color: Black
                                Red Factor (Extension)
                                Unknown [selected for unknown]
                                Red Carrier (Ee)
                                Homozygous Black (EE)

                                Dam
                                Color: Chestnut/Sorrel
                                Agouti (Bay/Black)
                                Unknown [selected for unknown]
                                Non-Agouti (aa)
                                Heterozygous (Aa)
                                Homozygous Agouti (AA)

                                Silver Dilution
                                Non Silver Carrier
                                Heterozygous (nZ)
                                Homozygous Silver (ZZ)

                                Which produced the following:
                                Offspring Color Probability

                                33.34% -Black
                                33.34% -Bay
                                33.33% -Chestnut
                                With this genetic breakdown:
                                Details: All
                                Ee/Aa = 33.3350%
                                Ee/aa = 33.3350%
                                ee/Aa = 16.6650%
                                ee/aa = 16.6650%

                                Originally posted by Simkie View Post
                                Nope.

                                Let's review our Punnett squares:

                                Sire: Eeaa (Black, carrying chestnut, no agouti)
                                Dam: eeaa (Chestnut, no agouti)
                                or
                                Dam: eeAa (Chestnut, one agouti)

                                Eeaa X eeaa=

                                50% Eeaa (black)
                                50% eeaa (chestnut)

                                Eeaa X eeAa=

                                25% EeAa (bay)
                                25% Eeaa (black)
                                25% eeaa (chestnut, not a bay carrier)
                                25% eeAa (chestnut, bay carrier)

                                But no matter what, you have 50% chance of a red-based foal (chestnut, in this case) and a 50% chance of a black-based foal (that 50% could be 100% black or 50/50 black/bay, depending on the dam's bay status.)
                                Piaffe Girl -- Dressage. Fashionably.
                                http://piaffegirl.wordpress.com/
                                https://www.facebook.com/PiaffeGirl

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Simkie View Post
                                  Not expensive!

                                  You can do it here: http://www.horsetesting.com/Equine.asp

                                  Although they don't do brown. JB, who has the test for At? I forget...
                                  So what does the "grey test" test for?

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by DancingFoalFarms View Post
                                    Sire
                                    Color: Black
                                    Red Factor (Extension)
                                    Unknown [selected for unknown]
                                    Red Carrier (Ee)
                                    Homozygous Black (EE)
                                    The sire is black with a chestnut dam. Therefore, we know that he is Eeaa, which yields the results that I outlined above. Given what we know about the sire and the fact the mare is chestnut, there is absolutely no way that pairing can produce 33.3% red, 33.3% black and 33.3% bay. The only unknown here is the agouti status of the mare--either Aa, Ata, or aa.

                                    Originally posted by Snowfox View Post
                                    So what does the "grey test" test for?
                                    Grey.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Simkie View Post

                                      Question for you, JB: if I have a horse that tested Aa through Animal Genetics, is it possible that she could be AAt? I ask purely for my own curiosity
                                      Nope "At" tests as just plain old A with Animal Genetics/UC Davis/Any standard Agouti test. So does A+ (wild bay) as well. All three are versions of Agouti, and the standard Agouti test just tests for the presence of Agouti.

                                      So it's possible the mare could test as Ata rather than Aa with PetDNA... Unless she's phenotypically bay, in which case she's definitely Aa

                                      DancingFoal, as Simkie said, there is no way possible that the foal has a 33.3333% chance of ANYTHING. It's just not possible. The calculator is wrong. The foal has a 50% chance of being red based, period!

                                      Me personally, I'm either looking at a 100% chance of brown or 75% brown/25% black. Mare is tested EE, and she's brown, so EE At-. Her sire is registered as bay and has produced black offspring, so if he was truly bay, he was Aa, and could have only contributed his "a" to the mare. So most likely, without having her tested for Agouti, she's EE Ata. Stallion is by a homozygous black (EE Ata as well) sire, and is brown himself. His dam is brown, out of two brown parents...she's obviously Ee Ata as well as she's produced both chestnut and black. Thus stallion could be EE AtAt, EE Ata, Ee AtAt, or Ee Ata. Interestingly, he had his first foal last year and I'm almost positive it was wild bay (out of a chestnut mare)...So, if wild bay is recessive to brown, that means the stallion MUST be Ata because that foal would have to be Ee A+a in order to be wild bay.

                                      So you can often research enough to figure out the genetics. If you're crazy at least
                                      Stübben North America
                                      Los Angeles - Ventura County - San Luis Obispo

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Simkie View Post
                                        Question for you, JB: if I have a horse that tested Aa through Animal Genetics, is it possible that she could be AAt? I ask purely for my own curiosity
                                        Nope - they all see either a or A, they just don't see the At version of A (meaning, At is not an unseen alternative to a)

                                        Aa through AG could be Ata, but never AAt. AA could be AA or AAt or AtAt, but whether it's AAt or At? would be apparent in the phenotype.

                                        Testing for brown is really only worth while in the case of a chestnut, or a bay who doesn't have a black parent and your'e interested in whether he carries brown (because bay is dominant over brown).

                                        If you've got a brown, you can just use the extension/agouti combo test to see zygosity of each, because as a brown, he can only be Ata or AtAt, so if he tests Aa or AA, you know what he actually is.
                                        ______________________________
                                        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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