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I've been nice, I've been patient, now what?

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  • #21
    I'm sorry you are having difficulty with this stallion owner. Luckily I have had no difficulty with them and have 2 offspring from their stallions. If you can't get it resolved with the SO's I'm REALLY impressed with my coming 3 YO by Bridon Belfrey RID out of my Erin Go Bragh mare
    Last edited by carolprudm; Feb. 22, 2013, 11:49 AM.
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by GAEventer View Post
      Fragonard from what I understand, they intended to freeze him, but either didn't complete the process before he died, or he didn't freeze well.
      There is frozen semen currently being advertised by the breeder of this stallion in GB. Whether she will 'share' it is another question.

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by fragonard View Post
        There is frozen semen currently being advertised by the breeder of this stallion in GB. Whether she will 'share' it is another question.
        Unless it was collected in quarantine they may not be able to
        I wasn't always a Smurf
        Penmerryl Sophie RIDSH
        "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
        The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

        Comment


        • #24
          From SOB

          Hi All, from the SO in question.
          It obviously has been thrilling for many of you to throw yourselves into this Breeder’s discussion. There is important additional information we would like to provide.

          I hope the those predictable people that chose to take this off to several other lists within our breeding circle have the integrity share.

          Breeder is quoted, Comments are interspersed in bold:

          “I booked to a RID stallion in December of 2011; I booked early so I could get a discount, and paid $1000 for the stud fee.”

          -True

          “My mare foaled in May, we skipped her foal heat, and I prepped to breed her on her 21 day cycle. Unfortunately she ovulated earlier than expected and we missed her.”

          - Good semen for this cycle was sent to mare owner and inseminated. SO was informed that semen was good. Ovulation apparently preceded insemination by two hours. Service was provided as per the contract. Mare failed to take on this heat.

          “We short cycled her, I dropped her at my vet's facility, and a couple of days later I ordered semen. The evening that the semen was supposed to be shipped, I received an emotional phone call from the SO telling me that the stallion was having a severe glaucoma flare up, and was blind. Initially I was full of sympathy, but then I thought WTF, why would an SO not know their stallion was blind?!! “

          The stallion was being boarded at the vet for convenience of collections. If you have never dealt with glaucoma you wouldn’t understand it can be a steady progression and/or can manifest in sudden pressure spikes. After a pressure spike vision can return partially or not at all. The stallion was NOT blind prior to this time. Certainly neither the vet nor we were able to forecast the timing of the episode. How generous to feel sympathy though unnecessary.


          “And why have I spent all these $$ readying my mare only to find out I'm not even going to get a shipment of semen?”

          -Probably you did this because you had already confirmed receiving and inseminating a batch of good quality semen for the cycle when the mare did not take and you had every expectation of receiving viable semen again as we had every expectation of being able to furnish the semen.

          “They offered to collect one of this stallion's sons, but I picked this stallion for specific reasons, and didn't want second best for her. **Side note, we had bred another mare to one of their other stallions, and received semen with less than 15% motility both times. He would have been my second choice, but why would I throw money at that?**”

          -Again multiple things left out of this section and your email updates show different figures.
          The second stallion used was booked after the first. Apparently, according to the breeder a breeding had been decided for the second mare but the stallion owner was being ‘difficult’ and the mare needed semen on short notice.
          Breeder even claimed she wished she just booked to him earlier to get the discount, as he was already one of her top choices. We decided to extend a 20% discount in light of the situation with the other stallion owner and due to second stud fee. We were then informed the mare was moving on faster than planned and an order for semen was placed. Semen was shipped. Breeder reported in writing semen had arrived. (Our vet had processed and shipped at 60%.) On arrival, breeder reported semen at 20% and went ahead and inseminated first batch. Inseminated second batch the following day (Friday) claiming it was at that time (third day from collection) 15%. We questioned this collection with our vet to see if anything was wrong. No, but proceeded to perform additional collections and evaluations to confirm fertility.
          Fourteen days later breeder confirmed mare was pregnant (I guess fertility confirmed). Unfortunately, the mare resorbed and breeder reported they would keep this mare on Regumate longer the next time due to advanced age and being a maiden mare. Shortly after the Breeder ordered her second and final batch of semen on this contract. Our vet bills show this collection was billed to us and sent free of charge to the breeder though I can’t think of any decent reason to have done so now considering the first batch had in fact produced a pregnancy.
          Once again the mare was confirmed in foal from the stallion. In our experience most mare owners would be very happy to have got their mare pregnant on both occasions with one shipping per heat cycle. We as SO's did all we could to accommodate requests of breeder. Discounted breeding and one paid collection.


          “By then we were nearing the beginning of July, and I didn't want to breed my mare that late (we live in GA, and it gets HOT). I asked for a refund since it didn't sound promising that the stallion would be available for collecting again (in fact, he was euthanized a couple of weeks later).”

          Again please note that Breeder had already received one good batch of semen when requested from this stallion.

          “SO assured me that I would receive a full refund. They were planning a move across the pond, and would reimburse me as soon as they sold one of their horses (who doesn't keep some stud fee dollars in an escrow for cases like this??). “

          Our contracts are non-refundable; however, we have never denied that we would in good faith give a refund as the Breeder refused all other resolutions. Not an industry standard. We do find it inexcusable to claim it was due to poor service. Good semen was shipped promptly on the first cycle. The fact that you missed ovulation is not a reflection of the service you purchased from us. When the stallion became unable to collect, you were offered your choice of one of the other stallions to substitute so you could still breed your mare in that season. Please note that’s why we always offer our other stallions and have collected semen to safeguard our customers’ interests after we leave should a mare resorb or slip.
          For the second mare, you were given discounted rates (because we were trying to help you since you had difficulties with another SO) and your mare got pregnant from each insemination. Unfortunately, the first pregnancy didn’t hold but you decision to keep her on Regumate longer appears to have been a good one since she is due to foal this spring.

          “Fast forward until now. SO has sold MULTIPLE horses, bought a new stallion, and has moved to England. The closest I've come to getting my money was a $500 check that bounced, and I had to pay a bank fee on!!!!”

          We regret that that the loss of a stallion coupled with a major planned move (NB planned, paid for and announced prior to the loss of our stallion, who was scheduled to fly home with us) left little spare cash floating around. While your money is certainly your concern the management of our business is not. Purchasing a breeding does not entitle you to judge the extent of our professional and personal life choices and decisions related to horses or not. We could have exercised our rights to refuse a refund under the contract. We have not done that, although considering we are damned if we do and damned if we don’t – perhaps we should have declined being so generous. Also, please note that we invested time and money into collecting all stallions frozen semen to leave in the USA as an “escrow” account unfortunately for us and the breed we lost our main stallion before semen was frozen.
          All customers of the 2012 breeding season were called or emailed prior to public announcement of impending move and notified of the frozen semen being left in the U.S. – including this Breeder.

          “They still have at least two horses in the US that are for sale. Am I entitled to put a lien against these horses?

          Any suggestions would be appreciated....”

          Using a public forum to slam a service in this manner to cause harm to the very people and business that extended their arm out to you through discounts, credits and offering other options. This coupled with the calls you have made to multiple clients, friends and business associates has not expedited anything. Asking for money and then doing all you can to stop us earning is not the smartest course of action. We are sorry we could not make the refund sooner. You or We cannot undo the damage you have caused here, but it saddens me that stallion owners are at the mercy of breeders who no matter what they sign, or how many discounts they receive will do all they can to wreck a business and a horses reputation. I guess our red flag should have been when you suggested another SO had failed you. I wish we had dodged the bullet also.

          Are you really looking for suggestions? If so, here are a few. First, consider yourself lucky. If this situation is the hardest knock you’ve had in the horse business you’re as lucky as they come. Second, start writing your own contracts and draw one up for every business relationship. This situation arose in the presence of a contract, it just happened to be one you didn’t like, so next time write your own. Third and last, reconsider if the breeding game is for you. Our business has always been relatively small but we’ve succeeded based on the quality of our horses, hard work, and the exemplary service we have offered for almost two decades to hundreds of clients. The notion of stud fees in an escrow account gave some friends a real chuckle! That is an unrealistic expectation and hints at other harbored unrealistic expectations. This final suggestion is as much for your benefit as for the benefit of other stallion owners who deal with enough stress during the breeding season.

          To move forward, please send your copy of the original contract (can be scanned email) and we will amend to provide a refund. Surely you can understand our request to have an agreement in writing to resolve the situation. This will ensure we avoid any further misunderstanding and keep things clean.
          Within four weeks from receipt of the contract funds will be issued.
          Thank you.
          SO (or as described SOB)

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #25
            Will be happy to provide you with my copy of the signed contract and check numbers, and would LOVE to get this taken care of. It has been drawn out long enough, and is unfortunate that I had to take this step to receive the refund I've been promised since last summer.

            Two things to note:

            1. Your contract states that their is an LFG to the contracted stallion, not that I have to switch to another if he is no longer available. And as you stated, he is not available via frozen.

            2. You also stated, "The notion of stud fees in an escrow account gave some friends a real chuckle!" Do these same friends think it's good business practice to not keep a copy of the contract in one's records?

            I will not comment on the rest of your 'facts'. I do hope that I will be receiving a refund soon, and will be happy to report when I do.

            PS I have NOT called or emailed a single person, although I have been approached by many.
            Last edited by GAEventer; Feb. 23, 2013, 09:01 PM.
            Fade to Grey Farm
            Eventing, Foxhunting & Connemaras
            *NEW* website:www.fadetogreyfarm.com

            Comment


            • #26
              The reason for requesting your copy of the contract is because you describe it to be different from the contracts every other breeder signed.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #27
                I have reviewed all of my posts, and haven't described anything from the contract other than it has an LFG for the contracted stallion. No point in furthering the she said, he said, I have kept all of our emails, and have all my paperwork. I will send all of it to you via email today.

                If I was refunded the stud fee months ago, as promised over and over, I would not have taken this measure.
                Fade to Grey Farm
                Eventing, Foxhunting & Connemaras
                *NEW* website:www.fadetogreyfarm.com

                Comment


                • #28
                  Issue resolved

                  No need to send anything other than your signed contract as requested. We have all correspondence, payments and breeding records. Not planning on spending anymore time and effort on this issue. Horses and family to enjoy instead.
                  Thank you

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    I should probably leave well enough alone but am experiencing flash-backs to my stint as stallion owner in the US. Based on my experience I would say that the 80-20 rule applies, with 80% being the decent mare owners.... It's the 20% that made me never want to stand another stallion again. The place that froze my stallion's semen had warned me about it, but I just couldn't believe that people would go through such lengths to get something for nothing. And after being "caught" trying to cheat me, I have actually had folks tell me that after all I got the semen for nothing, so why should they pay for it? Oy vey!

                    I think it's wrong that folks can go on the internet and vent their "billing/collection" issues without any verification as to the validity of their claims and have stated so on the "stallion testing non-payment" thread. I'm surprised that COTH allows this to happen.....

                    Just my opinion..
                    Siegi Belz
                    www.stalleuropa.com
                    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
                    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      It doesn't sound to me like the issue is resolved until the OP has her refund in hand... It's been 7 months already.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Siegi...this is unfortunately with any business. I am a small animal vet and love about 70% of my clients. The other 30% make me want to pack up and get a job as a toll booth operator! That 30% are in every sphere of the business world and are under the impression that the more of a stink they make the more they will get. Just last weekend I had a client INSIST I open up during our off hours so he could pick up his boarding dog...claimed we were holding his dog HOSTAGE! It was crazy. When I wouldn't give in h demanded all records sent to him. My pleasure.

                        Having said that business owners can be wrong as well. Just last week I ordered the wrong test for a dog. I always email all test results to owners and it was the owner that caught my mistake!! Embarrassing, yes. But I am human and was quick to rectify the situation refunding her the cost of the test and then repeating the correct test. Yes, I lost $60 for my mistake, but I felt it was the right thing to do and she is a good client.

                        Originally posted by siegi b. View Post
                        I should probably leave well enough alone but am experiencing flash-backs to my stint as stallion owner in the US. Based on my experience I would say that the 80-20 rule applies, with 80% being the decent mare owners.... It's the 20% that made me never want to stand another stallion again. The place that froze my stallion's semen had warned me about it, but I just couldn't believe that people would go through such lengths to get something for nothing. And after being "caught" trying to cheat me, I have actually had folks tell me that after all I got the semen for nothing, so why should they pay for it? Oy vey!

                        I think it's wrong that folks can go on the internet and vent their "billing/collection" issues without any verification as to the validity of their claims and have stated so on the "stallion testing non-payment" thread. I'm surprised that COTH allows this to happen.....

                        Just my opinion..
                        Read about my time at the Hannoveraner Verband Breeders Courses:
                        http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2011.html
                        http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2012.html

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #32
                          Originally posted by siegi b. View Post
                          I should probably leave well enough alone but am experiencing flash-backs to my stint as stallion owner in the US. Based on my experience I would say that the 80-20 rule applies, with 80% being the decent mare owners.... It's the 20% that made me never want to stand another stallion again. The place that froze my stallion's semen had warned me about it, but I just couldn't believe that people would go through such lengths to get something for nothing. And after being "caught" trying to cheat me, I have actually had folks tell me that after all I got the semen for nothing, so why should they pay for it? Oy vey!

                          I think it's wrong that folks can go on the internet and vent their "billing/collection" issues without any verification as to the validity of their claims and have stated so on the "stallion testing non-payment" thread. I'm surprised that COTH allows this to happen.....

                          Just my opinion..
                          So you're saying I'm trying to get something for nothing? I have a contract for, and paid a stud fee for, a breeding to a stallion. Said stallion died prior to me getting my mare bred, there is no frozen. The contract has an LFG for the contracted stallion. SO said they would refund my money and I have yet to receive it. I have called and emailed them repeatedly, and have been continually been put off. The matter could not be solved privately, so yes, I did post publicly to get input. I have now, as a result, received a response from the SO.

                          The issue is not yet 'resolved' but hopefully I will receive a check this time.
                          Fade to Grey Farm
                          Eventing, Foxhunting & Connemaras
                          *NEW* website:www.fadetogreyfarm.com

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            Originally posted by grayarabpony View Post
                            It doesn't sound to me like the issue is resolved until the OP has her refund in hand... It's been 7 months already.
                            You are right, it won't be resolved until I am refunded.
                            Fade to Grey Farm
                            Eventing, Foxhunting & Connemaras
                            *NEW* website:www.fadetogreyfarm.com

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              I cannot accurately comment on 99% of the he said/she said. But the 99% is irrelevant if the contract contained a LFG, and death of the stallion was not a stated exception to the guarantee.

                              The MO paid for a LFG breeding and did not get a live foal. Had it been her mare who was the problem, I might have some sympathy for the SO. But the problem was on the SO's end. IMO, both as an ex-breeder (in the TB world where fees are not due until Oct of the year bred, so we were less likely have this problem) and as an attorney, this conflict has no maybe's or maybe nots. He breached the contract. I am sure he did not contemplate it or breach it intentionally, but the fact remains that he did not perform under the terms; so the MO is entitled to a refund. Stop. End. Period.

                              The SO appears to think that, by sending semen one time, he has an excuse for not refunding the payment. This would be true if the MO had only paid for one shipment. But, evidently, she was on a LFG, and there is NO legal reason for the SO not to have promptly given her a refund.

                              Ridiculous that it has taken 8 months, and posting on a BB, for the MO to get a response from the SO. All the SO had to do was perform under the terms of the Agreement he signed. I have no sympathy for his angst due to the MO posting as she has done.

                              Neither are his personal feelings about the MO an excuse for his non-performance.

                              If I am wrong in any of the above details, I would be happy to hear what I have misunderstood.
                              "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

                              Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Lord Helpus View Post
                                I cannot accurately comment on 99% of the he said/she said. But the 99% is irrelevant if the contract contained a LFG, and death of the stallion was not a stated exception to the guarantee.

                                The MO paid for a LFG breeding and did not get a live foal. Had it been her mare who was the problem, I might have some sympathy for the SO. But the problem was on the SO's end. IMO, both as an ex-breeder (in the TB world where fees are not due until Oct of the year bred, so we were less likely have this problem) and as an attorney, this conflict has no maybe's or maybe nots. He breached the contract. I am sure he did not contemplate it or breach it intentionally, but the fact remains that he did not perform under the terms; so the MO is entitled to a refund. Stop. End. Period.

                                The SO appears to think that, by sending semen one time, he has an excuse for not refunding the payment. This would be true if the MO had only paid for one shipment. But, evidently, she was on a LFG, and there is NO legal reason for the SO not to have promptly given her a refund.

                                Ridiculous that it has taken 8 months, and posting on a BB, for the MO to get a response from the SO. All the SO had to do was perform under the terms of the Agreement he signed. I have no sympathy for his angst due to the MO posting as she has done.

                                Neither are his personal feelings about the MO an excuse for his non-performance.

                                If I am wrong in any of the above details, I would be happy to hear what I have misunderstood.
                                Lord H,

                                Two things I'd disagree with in your post.

                                One - SO did not say that sending semen one time meant he didn't have to send refund. When the original stallion died, he gave MO the option of using another stallion or a refund. He also said, based on MO's post, he didn't have the refund immediately available.

                                Two - it didn't take posting on COTH to get SO to respond to MO. They were apparently in contact all along.

                                And a comment. SO never used personal feelings as an excuse for anything. The only thing I infer from SO's post is that his personal feelings cause him to be more cautious and get the ammended agreement in writing.

                                But, even though we disagree, isn't this why these public forums are so much fun. We can all speculate without having all the facts. It is just so much easier that way.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by Lord Helpus View Post
                                  I cannot accurately comment on 99% of the he said/she said. But the 99% is irrelevant if the contract contained a LFG, and death of the stallion was not a stated exception to the guarantee.

                                  .
                                  I think every contract I have ever signed for shipped semen has had that exception.
                                  I wasn't always a Smurf
                                  Penmerryl Sophie RIDSH
                                  "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
                                  The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Just to clarify, although irrelevant here, most WB contracts I have seen to be LFG still have a limit of time to get that foal (one, two, three years) or even some will only collect so many times in a season (like two I suppose because they see it as your mares or your problem if they dont settle?) and most do seem to have a clause in the event of death of stallion and others will charge you a new booking fee for each year (ugh). So they can all vary even thought all called "LFG". Not like the more standardized thoroughbred contracts.
                                    Last edited by omare; Feb. 24, 2013, 06:44 PM.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by omare View Post
                                      Just to clarify, although irrelevant here, most WB contracts I have seen to be LFG still have a limit of time to get that foal (one, two, three years) or even some will only collect so many times in a season (like two I suppose because they see it as your mares or your problem if they dont settle?) and most do seem to have a clause in the event of death of stallion and others will charge you a new booking fee for each year (ugh). So they can all vary even thought all called "LFG". Not like the more standardized thoroughbred contracts.
                                      I really don't like (and have amended in the past) contracts that don't provide for the sale or death of the stallion.

                                      When I stood my stallion, my LFG contract stated that upon death or sale of the stallion, the stud fee would be refunded. I carried insurance for this kind of thing in the case of his death while I owned him. (and I might add that in the grand scheme of things - he was young and the insurance wasn't expensive. This was in addition to regular mortality insurance).

                                      When I sold the stallion (after the close of the breeding season) I set aside a certain percentage of the proceeds in case I needed to refund anyone the following year. I did that because I'd been a mareowner before I was a stallion owner.
                                      "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #39
                                        Originally posted by Ballygrace View Post
                                        Lord H,

                                        Two things I'd disagree with in your post.

                                        One - SO did not say that sending semen one time meant he didn't have to send refund. When the original stallion died, he gave MO the option of using another stallion or a refund. He also said, based on MO's post, he didn't have the refund immediately available.

                                        Two - it didn't take posting on COTH to get SO to respond to MO. They were apparently in contact all along.

                                        And a comment. SO never used personal feelings as an excuse for anything. The only thing I infer from SO's post is that his personal feelings cause him to be more cautious and get the ammended agreement in writing.

                                        But, even though we disagree, isn't this why these public forums are so much fun. We can all speculate without having all the facts. It is just so much easier that way.
                                        Upon the stallion's death I was given the option of A. a refund or B. switching to another stallion (I've already stated why I didn't take this option). I chose a refund.

                                        And yes, I was told they needed a couple of weeks to get the funds together (stated on June 20th). Then August, then in October, then before they left, then before the end of the year, and the last time I heard a response to my emails, it would be the first of the year. We have been in contact, I never said we hadn't been, but it has taken repeated emails, phone calls, texts, etc and there is always an excuse at the other end. Eight months later and I haven't been refunded. VERY. FRUSTRATING.
                                        Fade to Grey Farm
                                        Eventing, Foxhunting & Connemaras
                                        *NEW* website:www.fadetogreyfarm.com

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                                        • Original Poster

                                          #40
                                          Originally posted by ahf View Post
                                          I really don't like (and have amended in the past) contracts that don't provide for the sale or death of the stallion.

                                          When I stood my stallion, my LFG contract stated that upon death or sale of the stallion, the stud fee would be refunded. I carried insurance for this kind of thing in the case of his death while I owned him. (and I might add that in the grand scheme of things - he was young and the insurance wasn't expensive. This was in addition to regular mortality insurance).

                                          When I sold the stallion (after the close of the breeding season) I set aside a certain percentage of the proceeds in case I needed to refund anyone the following year. I did that because I'd been a mareowner before I was a stallion owner.
                                          I was very surprised that there was no backup plan in the case that something went wrong. I haven't stood a stallion, but have two young colts coming up, and will always have money set aside for an instance like this. It's good business sense. I also keep all of my emails and paperwork. Fortunately in this case I also have texts and voicemails...
                                          Fade to Grey Farm
                                          Eventing, Foxhunting & Connemaras
                                          *NEW* website:www.fadetogreyfarm.com

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