• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Lethal White Syndrome

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Yes. He has no disease, as he would if he was N/H for HYPP.

    He carries a recessive (lethal) gene, so every mare should be tested before being bred to him and should not be a carrier herself.

    In an ideal world, carriers would not be bred and thus would not produce more carriers, however that's not happening.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
      Which if I understand correctly, isn't a "bad" thing, right? It just is what it is and one needs to be certain he is never bred to a mare who also carries the gene, right? Unlike HYPP.
      Yes, you are correct. With the testing available, there is NO reason to produce a LW foal.

      Also any and all "Frame Overo" horses ARE OLW positive. You can't have Frame without the Lethal gene.
      Patty
      www.rivervalefarm.com
      Follow us on facebook - https://www.facebook.com/pages/River...ref=ts&fref=ts

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        As a non-color breeder, is there a rule of thumb as to which mares you should test? Is white or lack there of any indicator or is it simply breed specific? My filly has tons of white. If I were to breed her to the horse listed above (purely hypothetical to the Nth degree!) should she be tested or is the fact that her dam was a TB with little to no white anywhere in her family good enough? If someone were to pull a mare out of the kill pen with absolutely no inkling of her background but little to no white would you test her before breeding to the stallion above? I guess I am trying to judge just how big of an asshat the person referenced in the OP actually is.
        McDowell Racing Stables

        Home Away From Home

        Comment


        • If I was breeding horses, I would test any mare bred to a carrier just to be positive.

          Comment


          • Knowing what I know now, if I pulled a horse from the kill pen, I would have it tested, even to be a riding horse if it were a stock type. I've seen dumping first hand from paint breeders for HYPP, have heard second hand about dumping for Arab people - mostly just to get them off the feed bill or to cull, and I feel fairly confident that some QH folks do it as well, probably again for HYPP. And knowing that even solid colored horses can be carriers for lethal white....well, it would just be worth the money.

            As I have a gelding, not actually an issue for me!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
              As a non-color breeder, is there a rule of thumb as to which mares you should test?
              Anything of unknown breeding, or anything of breeding known to carry Frame, such as QH and Paint and minis, should be tested. Frame is in the TB world, but just a small handful of lines.

              Is white or lack there of any indicator or is it simply breed specific?
              Simply breed-specific in some cases (ie QH/Paint/minis) and anything with those mixes. A horse can be 100% solid, not a single white hair, and be a Frame carrier, so never rely on a visual for a solid or "just looks Tobiano" horse if the breed/breeding is potentially an issue

              My filly has tons of white. If I were to breed her to the horse listed above (purely hypothetical to the Nth degree!) should she be tested or is the fact that her dam was a TB with little to no white anywhere in her family good enough?
              Neither her TB side nor her WB side have any remote associated with Frame

              If someone were to pull a mare out of the kill pen with absolutely no inkling of her background but little to no white would you test her before breeding to the stallion above? I guess I am trying to judge just how big of an asshat the person referenced in the OP actually is.
              Absolutely 100% test, because the QH influence is in SUCH a large % of the horse population. And when you add an obvious spotted pattern to the mix, the odds increase, since the odds of there being APHA blood becomes higher, and APHA has a much higher prevalence of Frame than the QH

              Originally posted by oldernewbie View Post
              Knowing what I know now, if I pulled a horse from the kill pen, I would have it tested, even to be a riding horse if it were a stock type. I've seen dumping first hand from paint breeders for HYPP, have heard second hand about dumping for Arab people - mostly just to get them off the feed bill or to cull, and I feel fairly confident that some QH folks do it as well, probably again for HYPP. And knowing that even solid colored horses can be carriers for lethal white....well, it would just be worth the money.

              As I have a gelding, not actually an issue for me!
              Yep, I would have any kill pen or otherwise unpapered horse tested for HYPP at the very least, because if you end up with one, you AT LEAST need to know it's there and do what you can to manage it, which means paying close attention to potassium intake and stress levels. No need to test a gelding for Frame.
              ______________________________
              The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JB View Post
                No need to test a gelding for Frame.
                I should have been more specific! to wit: As I have a registered gray Arabian gelding and know where he came from, not exactly an issue for me!

                But I have enjoyed this discussion!

                As for the OP - yes, she was really an asshat. Totally unnecessary!

                Comment


                • Sorry, that wasn't directed at you, just a comment in general
                  ______________________________
                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by skydy View Post
                    He carries the lethal white gene.

                    Sigh, thanks.


                    I guess it still is all about the $$.

                    But since he HAS it, there still is a 50% chance the foal will have it - correct??

                    WHY would you breed this over? Oh I know $$$. Why would you ever risk it?? Oh I know $$$.

                    This horse does nothing else but halter. But of course claims *offspring* does or can do such and such more than halter or the ad leads one to believe that. Maybe the ad states the potential and not what it is in reality.

                    I guess as long as the stallion owner gets their $$ they do not care it seems.

                    But WHY would a mare owner knowingly breed to such a horse?

                    Also the mare was a black solid looking color (from marestare) and the resulting foal is a solid chestnut. Stallion is palo overo, mare solid, foal chestnut. Mare appears to be definitely a halter bred horse.

                    Why the risk? Just so the mare owner can get a foal which looks just like him? So they can show or sell the foal due to the coloring.

                    To me, color is so NOT important. Gait (movement), temp, conformation, trainability, is so much more important.

                    It would be heart breaking to have such a foal borne. And at the risk of possibly loosing the mare in the process. There is always the risk.

                    Since the foal's sire has the lwo gene, the foal now possesses it - correct? Or is dna in order to find out.

                    Comment


                    • Just want to vclarify that the OP of this thread is not the "asshat." The person she was talking about is.
                      What's wrong with you?? Your cheese done slid off its cracker?!?!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rmh_rider View Post
                        But since he HAS it, there still is a 50% chance the foal will have it - correct??

                        WHY would you breed this over? Oh I know $$$. Why would you ever risk it?? Oh I know $$$.
                        Because as long as only 1 parent has it theres NO risk.

                        It's completely safe to carry one copy with no ill effects. Nothing to be heartbroken over if you breed Frame responsibly.
                        Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                        http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oliverreed View Post
                          Just want to vclarify that the OP of this thread is not the "asshat." The person she was talking about is.
                          So sorry - you are absolutely right. Did not mean to lose sight of that! Silly me.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by RiddleMeThis View Post
                            Because as long as only 1 parent has it theres NO risk.

                            It's completely safe to carry one copy with no ill effects. Nothing to be heartbroken over if you breed Frame responsibly.
                            Then why have even one copy of it in the first place?

                            Just asking is all. Not to stir anything up, just asking is all.

                            You would *think* somebody would try to have the most perfect horse to breed on their dna. With a known lwo which is a problem, why have it in the first place to breed over. Why no just geld the horse or never breed that particular mare?

                            Same goes for hypp, scid, etc.

                            Why have a known dna problem going into a breeding situation?

                            $$ ?? And that would be on BOTH sides. For the mare owner to sell the foal for $$, and stallion owner for the $tud fees.

                            There are other paint stallions out there with no hypp and no lwo in their genes. Same goes for other horse breeds, dogs, cats, etc.

                            Why start with a dna-known strike against the foal?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by oliverreed View Post
                              Just want to vclarify that the OP of this thread is not the "asshat." The person she was talking about is.
                              Is this the same owner that stands this stallion? http://winningedgepaints.tripod.com/id14.html

                              http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/heza+kidclusion

                              If not, I apologize in advance. I just don't know why put the stress on a nice mare that might have that multi-million dollar foal. Oh wait, maybe the money?

                              Comment


                              • In the case I am talking about, no it is not the OP's horse she is speaking about.

                                But still, you have to suspect it is all about the money.

                                I got curious and looked for the OP's horse, but came across a different paint person breeding a mare, and is still currently listed on marestare.

                                BTW this stallion you refer too Shine, looks like they are keeping him thin (so not to appear overly bulky or perhaps this is how he should be managed with the N/H thing), AND he is N/H. ARG.

                                Why start with a known dna-strike against the foal from the get go. Are there no other stallions who are nice and are not hypp bred or at least N/N?? Looking at the pedigree, sheesh. 4 lines to Impressive.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by rmh_rider View Post
                                  Then why have even one copy of it in the first place?

                                  You would *think* somebody would try to have the most perfect horse to breed on their dna. With a known lwo which is a problem, why have it in the first place to breed over. Why no just geld the horse or never breed that particular mare?
                                  Because the color is gorgeous, and there's no need to get rid of the color. Especially in the Paint breed where color is almost mandatory. You can't show in the same classes if you don't have color, and you pretty much lose any market you had. Yes good horses are going to sell regardless, but the price and outlook are dramatically different.

                                  Same goes for hypp, scid, etc.
                                  HYPP is different as one copy DOES have a problem.

                                  Why have a known dna problem going into a breeding situation?
                                  Because heterozygous Frame ISN'T a DNA problem.


                                  There are other paint stallions out there with no hypp and no lwo in their genes. Same goes for other horse breeds, dogs, cats, etc.

                                  Why start with a dna-known strike against the foal?
                                  Because it's NOT a strike (LWO at least. HYPP definitely is). It can give a GORGEOUS pattern to the foal with no ill effects. Why breed it out when it's not harming anything, and in fact ADDING to the foal?
                                  Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                                  http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by rmh_rider View Post
                                    Then why have even one copy of it in the first place?

                                    Just asking is all. Not to stir anything up, just asking is all.

                                    You would *think* somebody would try to have the most perfect horse to breed on their dna. With a known lwo which is a problem, why have it in the first place to breed over. Why no just geld the horse or never breed that particular mare?

                                    Same goes for hypp, scid, etc.

                                    Why have a known dna problem going into a breeding situation?
                                    There's a big difference between culling LWO+ horses and SCID/HERDA horses and an even bigger difference with HYPP horses.

                                    LWO IS frame overo. You CANNOT have a frame overo without a horse being LWO positive. If it's frame, it's LWO positive.

                                    1 copy of this gene causes no problems at all. None. It's not at all like HYPP, where N/H can (and often is) sympotmatic. That's a very easy answer.

                                    And it's not like SCID or HERDA either, where you have the option to culling individuals based purely on /+. In this case, culling because a horse is LWO+ means culling an entire color out of existance. With SCID or HERDA you're not culling an entire segement of a population so that it becomes "extinct" and consigned to history.

                                    I'm not advocating weighing SCID or HERDA or LFS status lightly, but these are also very mangeable statuses and if a horse is an otherwise exceptional individual, wise breeding practices make it totally safe to breed them.

                                    But if you cull all LWO+ horses, you remove all frame overos. The gene that causes the frame overo coloration also causes lethal white when homozygous. It's not the only color gene linked to problems.

                                    Overos are 100% mangeable with a $25 DNA test. They're more manegable than grays who develop melonomas. There is no reason to ever get a LWO foal beyond sheer ignorant stupidity.
                                    "The nice thing about memories is the good ones are stronger and linger longer than the bad and we sure have some incredibly good memories." - EverythingButWings

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by rmh_rider View Post

                                      BTW this stallion you refer too Shine, looks like they are keeping him thin (so not to appear overly bulky or perhaps this is how he should be managed with the N/H thing), AND he is N/H. ARG.
                                      Yes, you are right because he looks "beefy" here - http://whisperingwindfarm.homestead.com/stallions.html

                                      Comment


                                      • Thanks Shine, Riddle and little.

                                        I know about the hypp but didn't know that to get the color pattern a horse had to be lwo. Hypp definitely a strike against all future offspring, not to mention the horse itself.

                                        I understand color is important to show if you want to show in the color classes.

                                        The person I was speaking about risked, and got a solid. I understand it does happen.

                                        I just will never get over the n/h and continuing to breed it on. We *know*, but some still do it. And, it is sad in the end the animal has it, and can suffer. When it could have been totally avoided.

                                        Yes, Shine he does look beefy there. Guess they have to up the marketing glam to attract mare owners.

                                        I wonder if he is symptomatic and the thinner body helps them and him manage the whole thing? Perhaps his feed is quite regulated and his thinner body is a result of it??? It sure looks like he could pack on some man-beef (sorry lex) with more food though based on the fancy front cover picture, but maybe they are holding back?

                                        Interesting subject, I have definitely learned some things on this thread.

                                        I do not have any paints, never have, just one breed right now. A Rocky. And, she is black, which I specifically wanted black due to the silver dapple / ASD thing, also I wanted the best eyes to see for the trail in this breed. I love black in this breed. Very pretty, and she is dna black, got a copy of her dna (somewhere around here). I have never wanted choco no matter how "alluring" it is for some. Not to get off topic btw. moving on . . .

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X