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Stallions and Non-Payment of the Stallion Test

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  • #41
    Originally posted by Galileo1998 View Post
    You know, it's really none of my business but I've been thinking and have come up with a perfect win/win solution if in fact Aloha's CSHA approval hinges on his stallion test being paid for.

    Let's say there is $6000 outstanding.

    And let's chose to believe that he bred 60 mares last year at the $1200 stud fee he was advertised at.

    Why not offer 10 specially priced breedings to Aloha at $600 each with that money going directly to Silvercreek? There should be a lot of people willing to do that if 60 were willing to pay $1200 before he produced BYH at Devon, and still be enough mare owners willing to pay full price that his new owners make some money.

    So - Silvercreek gets paid.

    Aloha gets a new owner free and clear from any connection to Jill.

    Pikturesque Farm gets their stallion CSHA approved, and good PR for taking responsibility for getting Silvercreek paid.

    Ashland stops getting bad PR for whatever their role is in this.

    The CSHA doesn't approve a stallion based on a 70 day text that wasn't paid for.

    And some mare owners get a bargain. If for some reason he doesn't get the early bookings at the super special price it gives the new owners a heads up that maybe all wasn't as it seems with the bookings they were told he's had in the past.

    And then everyone lives happily ever after.

    And there's my random solution for a situation that has nothing to do with me.
    OH Galileo - friend - REALLY? Another auction of sorts to bail out the unpaid fees of Jill Burnell - indirectly? I thought most of the Aloha breedings were practically given away when JB owned him since he had no show record, etc etc etc - but that's another story - I am confused only about the CSHA or the other Canadian WB registry - I maybe missed but how does a young stallion like Aloha get approved in these registries exactly? And we need a stallion at bargain prices when others with proven stallions don't get this "bonus " approach? Sorry G - I think the idea not so hot.
    "Her life was okay. Sometimes she wished she were sleeping with the right man instead of with her dog, but she never felt she was sleeping with the wrong dog."



    • #42
      You're welcome to your opinion. I'm more of a solutions person than a sit back and bitch about things person.

      As for who and what and how many Aloha bred, I have no clue. I'd be surprised if it was 60 mares, but I've been surprised by things in the past.

      Others with proven stallions can offer whatever deals they want, ultimately it's up to mare owners to decide where they want to send their money and their mares.

      As for how stallions are approved CSHA or CWHBA, it's typically through inspection and performance, but there is the option of having them approved sight unseen based on approval with another recognized Warmblood registry and suitable performance.


      • #43
        For the record I stand corrected. I have checked this afternoon and found out that the CWHBA are not on the list of associations that are accepted by CSH for restricted sight unseen or sight unseen stallions. My mistake on that.....however ISR OLD and RPSI are.

        Sorry but I still think this whole matter is best determined in a civil court of law between the two parties involved. How all these Breeding Associations somehow got involved is really beyond me.

        The bottom line however is still that the horses are now in excellent hands and well taken care of.


        • Original Poster


          The approval of a stallion for a breeding license is subjective to the requirements for each individual registry. The completion of the 70-Day Test does not automatically assure the stallion will be licensed with one/multiple registries.

          The NA Stallion Test is not responsible for the licensing of stallions. The Test exists to provide the individual registries with information regarding the characteristics of the stallion as a SPORT HORSE. His rideability, work ethic, etc. Whether or not the association feels that the stallion is qualified to enter their breeding program is entirely up to them and we have no say in it whatsoever.

          Thus, it is possible for a stallion to successfully complete the test and not be accepted by a registry for breeding due to pedigree, conformation, movement or other criteria that is unacceptable for their program. It is even possible to have one of the highest scores in the Test and NOT be accepted by a registry for breeding.

          Therefore, it is the risk of the stallion owner to send the stallion to the Test in the hopes that he will not only successfully complete the Test, but also be desirable to the registries he will be presented to in the end (if he was not approved prior to attending the Test).

          Thus, the cost of the Test IS NOT subjective to whether or not the stallion receives breeding licenses on the licensing day following the Test. It is unacceptable to choose not to pay or expect a discount regarding the cost of the Test when a stallion owner does not receive satisfactory licensing results from the registries. They are entirely SEPARATE entities. We have done our job. There is no "long story" to tell. Just the facts.
          Last edited by SilverCreek; Feb. 21, 2013, 12:31 AM. Reason: spelling
          Summer Stoffel
          Silver Creek International/Equicore


          • #45
            Interesting Summer. Ive never seen it explained in quite that manner before but of course that is correct

            I guess in much the same way as if I had a youngster to sell, took it to a show so Susie Smith could watch it go around the ring, the performance was not what Susie was looking for and she declined to buy it and then I made the decision to not pay my show / stabling fees fees because my sale didnt get done

            Personally I dont mind Galileo's suggestion at all. This is almost like a mediation situation - lay out the cards on the table, mediate the differences, and see what solution can be reached to allow both parties to "win" and get the problem resolved so everyone can move forward

            Ive seen worse suggestions. Perhaps if someone has a better one they can suggest it now for consideration???

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            • #46
              Thank you Silvercreek for a clear concise accurate post about the situation. I re-iterate again however is there not an easier way to obtain any money owed to you rather then going public and posting all of this publically on the internet? I qestion your real intentions here honestly. Can you not hire a lawyer and seek civil remedy for this (ie: sue) I say this tongue in cheek of course but you live in the USA....it seems everyone sues everyone there. Surely some lawyer would be willing to take this case to court for you if there is any merit in what you claim.

              Or, is this all because you feel that JB will not be able to pay you in the end and you are looking for others to bail you out. I just don't see why new owners or any Associations need to be involved in your personal business.

              I don't think anyone here is disputing the fact that you should be paid for your services. Its the way you are going about trying to get your money that is irrating. And you are causing a lot of people a lot of grief that are now caught up in all of this that had NOTHING at all to do with any of the original issue.

              I believe this is best handled off the internet entirely.


              • #47
                Cherham it has been three years so I think they have probably tried for quite some time. Don't they have a lien on the other stallions as well? At this point these SOs should have resolved this or came to an agreement about a payment arrangement. Been quite some time.


                • #48
                  Cherham, I disagree. Initially, the lien on Aloha was mentioned in one of the other Burnell threads and I saw this "announcement" as being - well, fair, inasmuch that Silver Creek is pointing out that it wasn't just Aloha/Jill Burnell who didn't pay, but there were others, too.

                  I have seen Escapade (both of them) being touted as a stallion choice for a couple of years, and not once have I seen any reference to their Approval or Owner's Ethics from Silver Creek (or indeed anyone else, so it appears that once again, the stallion owners club of Omerta is doing its thing)
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                  • #49
                    Summer, thanks for your excellent explanation. It never occurred to me that some folks think that a "passing score" automatically guarantees a breeding license from various registries. I know for a fact there are some stallions that were not of interest to several registries, despite receiving what those registries consider "a passing score".

                    I will also add that in some cases, the stallions at the 70DT already have a temporary breeding license granted by one or more registries. I don't know how other registries handle the expiration of temporary licenses, but for OHBS/GOV, if the stallion hasn't met full performance requirements by the end of his 6th year, his license becomes deactivated, and it can only be activated again once he meets the performance requirements (and owner pays the activation fee).


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by cherham View Post
                      I don't think anyone here is disputing the fact that you should be paid for your services. Its the way you are going about trying to get your money that is irrating. And you are causing a lot of people a lot of grief that are now caught up in all of this that had NOTHING at all to do with any of the original issue.
                      Seems to me the only people caused grief by this thread are the people who willfully defrauded Silver Creek - i.e., the owners of Aloha, Delacroix, Escapade I and Escapade II.


                      • #51
                        Unfortunately DownYonder the ramifications of all of this have gone quite farther a field then just the owners of the said stallions you mentioned. This is sad but a true reality....and I just read that this non payment of the bill has been going on for years? Really....I know the court system takes a long time but honestly.


                        • #52
                          Who else is being harmed Cherham?


                          • #53
                            I am confused only about the CSHA or the other Canadian WB registry - I maybe missed but how does a young stallion like Aloha get approved in these registries exactly?

                            "the other Canadian Warmblood registry" is the CWHBA (Canadian Warmblood Horse Breeders Association). They run stallion licencing and mares approval (5 mares books: MMB, MB, P1, P2, Aux.) just like most of the other WB registries in the world does. They have rules for the stallions to be eligible (sired by an approved or recognized stallion of approved wb population, and out of a MMB or MB mare. It is a bit more complicated, but you get the picture). Then for the stallion to get full lifetime approval, he has to proove himself at a certain level in sport, or do the CWHBA SPT wich is on a 10 days format. Or... the stallion can do any higher requirement stallion testing that the CWHBA will recognize if he gets sufficient scores (like the former 100 dt, the Celle 300 dt, the now 30/70 dt in use by most of the major european registries, etc.).

                            CSHA stands for Canadian Sport Horse Association. They are a SPORT HORSE registry. Thus, they approve the stallions based on performance (this is the big scheme... there's probably exceptions to it...). So if it is not via the SPORT (dressage, racing!!, jumpers, hunters, eventing, etc.), it can be via any stallion PERFORMANCE test. As the CSHA does not have any particular SPT of its own, they usually recognize the ones of the registries who DOES have one (like the 10dt of ISR/OldNA or the 10dt of the CWHBA... or the former 100dt and now the 30 and or 70dt, etc.). For your mare's offspring to get full papers, she needs to be inspected by CSHA OR, you have to send her "cv" with performance record and/or scores given by another registry indicating your mare is of sufficient quality (sight-unseen approval). If you do not get your mare inspected by CSHA or you have nothing to give them to prove she has done something or is deemed of sufficient quality elsewhere, then her resulting foals won't get full CSHA papers. Remember, it is a SPORT HORSE registry, not a WARMBLOOD registry, so you will find full blooded Hanoverians (like the line winner Aritza) in this registry, as well as a GP horse like Rheirattack, Irish Draught approved stallion, and (I don't find it on the 2013 stallion list) an Iberic (can't remember PRE or PSL) approved stallion.

                            So my guess is that because Aloha has received scores from a SPT that both canadian registies recognize, then it is just a matter of client or SO asking (and paying related fees) that this particular stallion be activated. The registries will then study if the stallion meets their pedigree and performance or SPT results requirements, and voilà.

                            As others said, those registries did not pushed the investigation as far as making sure all fees were paid to the SPT organization. Why would they. Now that they know... Then, it's up to the association(s) (CSHA and or CWHBA.. I did not followed wich one had Aloha listed) to decide if they take this matter of money owed in consideration or not in the decision to remove or not the stallion from their "approved stallions" list.
                            Last edited by Spike; Feb. 21, 2013, 10:51 AM.
                            Les Écuries d'Automne, Québec, Canada
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                            • #54
                              IMO the people being harmed are the mare owners like me who had booked to these stallions and just now through this thread are finding out they will not be able to register foals. As in my case where I asked the registry itself whether or not a stallion was "valid".

                              I do hold the SO's responsible. It is their responsibility to make sure all is in order in the end no matter what the situation.

                              I do think Silver Creek has a right to expect to be paid for services provided. You pay for the test and all that goes into it like board, care, and training, etc. This, I feel, is what you pay for, and hopefully in the end you get your horse approved.

                              I hold no ill will toward the SO in my case. We have resolved our issue and will remain on friendly terms.
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                              • #55
                                I think the OP is more than justified in taking this issue public at this point. I imagine they have done so as a last resort, as it seems like they've been trying to collect on this debt for some years. I'm so tired of the real villians in these cases being protected! Here's a simple fact: these stallion owners have basically stolen from the stallion testing entity, by not settling their debts. They have misled the public (mare owners) by representing the stallion's offspring as registerable, where in some cases, due to the debt, they clearly are not. How is taking this public any different than USEF listing people in their magazine each month that are no longer in good standing for outstanding bills to shows/USEF? And you can bet USEF doesn't take years to make that info public!
                                Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!


                                • #56
                                  Spike that was an excellent explanation except that the CSHA is not a sport horse "registry' but a "breed" organization. There is a big difference. The "Canadian Sport Horse" is evolving to become a distinct breed under the rules of the Canada Pedigree Act (federal legislation). Warmbloods and other "suitable" sport horse type bloodlines are included in the CSHA Stud Book..pending satisfactory testing of course. This does include full TB's, Trak and some other breeds IF they meet the standards of acceptance set by the CSHA. But basically what you have said is true.....if a stallion has been approved and therefore met the selection criteria of most of the other warmblood registries (not all however) then pending the satisfactory fees and paperwork being submitted those stallions would be eligive to be approved and licenced for breeding by the CSHA under the sight unseen category. Both the CWHBA and the CSHA I believe have given breeding approval to the stallions in question because they were indeed approved and already licenced by an "approved" warmblood registry already...one of the stallions in question was indeed listed as licenced and approved on one the of these warmblood organization sites not even a week ago (I have the screen capture to prove it) and a quick internet search on the archive site still shows it but mysteriously that stallion's name has now been omitted. Still since he WAS approved at the time that the registration process was iniated in this case the CSHA would have accepted him based on that information. And direct confirmation from that Registry head office of course which I have no doubt was done.


                                  • #57
                                    All this is absolutely ridiculous ! Pay your damn bills and you won't be outed in public , it's that simple.

                                    You pass the test , you use that leverage of approval to sell semen and make money, yet you don't pay the test that got you that approval ? I'm calling bullshit on this.


                                    • #58
                                      I am curious to find out what happened at the auction this past weekend... Cherham, I know you were quite anxious to bid on Aloha... and now you are upset with all this "stuff" on the internet... Did you have second thoughts? What happened with RW? I am not even sure where the results of that auction have been posted, if they were posted.
                                      I am really curious though.


                                      • #59
                                        Well the easy fix for a buyer of one of the stallions is to just pay this debt on it themselves and consider it as part of the purchase price. It will benefit them and the stallion. In theory, it should be a consideration when purchasing the stallion and should reduce their price that would have gone to the seller. I most certainly would NOT buy a stallion without having the price reflect that I was going to pay this nor would I rely on the seller of the stallion to pay it...they have no incentive.
                                        ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by Bayhawk View Post
                                          All this is absolutely ridiculous ! Pay your damn bills and you won't be outed in public , it's that simple.

                                          You pass the test , you use that leverage of approval to sell semen and make money, yet you don't pay the test that got you that approval ? I'm calling bullshit on this.
                                          Reece, there are times when your bluntness is annoying. This is not one of them.