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Stallions and Non-Payment of the Stallion Test

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  • #21
    What is the Statute of Limitations on money matters???? A lien is until the stallions sell right???

    SH
    Last edited by SleepyHollow; Feb. 19, 2013, 02:28 PM. Reason: spelling

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    • #22
      Originally posted by SleepyHollow View Post
      What is the Statute of Limitations on money matters???? A lien is until the stallions sell right???

      SH
      If there was a contract and a lack of payment, they can pursue action in court for damages. If they win and get a court order, there are a few alternatives available to get payment. If they filed a lien...that really doesn't do anything or prove anything but it is simple to do.
      ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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      • Original Poster

        #23
        Let me clarify...

        Didn't say they had never paid. Said there was non-payment. In the case of the two Escapades, half of the test has been paid for each. I don't dispute at all that that much has been paid, but it was clearly explained that payment would be divided among the two stallions. I can provide the financial statements supporting her claim of that amount as well, but I can also produce an agreement that the tests will be paid in full, even in the case if one were to be sold, etc.

        Anyone who knows me understands that I normally handle these things in private. I do not like making these issues public. However, I HAVE REPEATEDLY made attempts to directly contact as has been suggested. IT HAS NOT WORKED. For three years. I would love to know where these statements are being posted so I can directly work with them. Why post somewhere instead of email or call me? That has never happened either. Just in case you can not find it on my website, here it is:

        Summer Stoffel
        summer@silvercreeksporthorses.com
        918-830-7776

        I would love to work directly. That is my cell number. Feel free to call anytime.

        And yes, I will take ownership of the decision to offer a payment plan. I wanted to help enable a situation where stallion owners in this country, could have a financially feasible avenue for licensing their stallions and be able to afford to send them into consistent training afterward. Remember the first stallion test took place during one of the largest recessions this country has ever seen. Lesson learned.
        Summer Stoffel
        Silver Creek International/Equicore
        www.silvercreeksporthorses.com
        www.equicore.com

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        • #24
          I'm surprised that this thread hasn't been closed yet..... Regardless of how anybody feels about this situation - using a public forum in order to facilitate bill collections just seems so wrong.
          Siegi Belz
          www.stalleuropa.com
          2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
          Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

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          • #25
            I just contacted the RPSI regarding Escapade as I have a mare booked to him for this year. Jo Ann told me that his scores are void until payment for test is made in full.

            I have already sent Alicia a message as well, to see what she's doing about this from her end. I was also under the impression that E1 was paid for and that yes, there was a problem with E2's payment. This was told to me by Alicia herself a while back. I hope this gets resolved because right now I am either stuck breeding to a stallion I can't register a foal by, or having to shell out another stud fee for a new stallion.

            I absolutely understand the RPSI's point of view on this as well as Silver Creek's. Just all around sucks for me!


            ETA: I just spoke with Alicia and she seems genuinely confused as she feels she has paid for E1's test, and that yes, there is an issue with E2(long story). Look, I like Alicia, and I like the folks at Silver Creek, have used them both and would like to use them both again. I hope this situation can be resolved in a fashion where all parties are ok with the outcome.
            Last edited by everafterfarm; Feb. 19, 2013, 04:08 PM.
            Check us out on Facebook at EVER AFTER FARM

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            • #26
              Originally posted by everafterfarm View Post
              I just contacted the RPSI regarding Escapade as I have a mare booked to him for this year. Jo Ann told me that his scores are void until payment for test is made in full.

              I have already sent Alicia a message as well, to see what she's doing about this from her end. I was also under the impression that E1 was paid for and that yes, there was a problem with E2's payment. This was told to me by Alicia herself a while back. I hope this gets resolved because right now I am either stuck breeding to a stallion I can't register a foal by, or having to shell out another stud fee for a new stallion.

              I absolutely understand the RPSI's point of view on this as well as Silver Creek's. Just all around sucks for me!
              No. You should not be stuck. You booked to a stallion expecting that the resulting foal would be registerable because they advertised that the stallion was approved. If that is NOT the case, then under the contract law of most states there is a failure of consideration and they should refund the money paid.
              Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

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              • #27
                I agree we should in work together for the greater good of the horse industry. Registries that accept the 70 day test especially but there are limitations imposed by the order of events. One example is one of the horses that have a lien is licensed by the AHS and HV , and was licensed already before it showed up at the 70 day test. The AHS or HV never received a communication that the horse had a lien on it and the horse was approved after successfully completing the test. This was stamped on the horses registration papers by the Silver creek testing authority.The horse has since sold and ownership transferred last week. It could become a legal mess for a membership organization to get in the middle of this payment collection problem given the facts. Does the new owner know there is a lien on the horse? I just saw it on this posting and checked with the AHS office who did not know any of this.
                www.immunallusa.com
                www.rainbowequus.com Home of stallions that actually produced champion hunter, jumper and dressage offspring and now also champion eventers

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                • #28
                  When my stallion did the testing in 2000 all the fees were paid up front AND, if I recall correctly, the contract stated that the stallion's approval would be withheld until any additional fees (farrier, vet, etc) were paid.
                  I appreciate that Silver Creek tried to make this more affordable for stallion owners. It is a shame that their generosity was not honored in return.
                  Cindy Bergmann
                  Canterbury Court
                  559-903-4814
                  www.canterbury-court.com

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                  • #29
                    I don't see where the registries are being asked to be bill collectors. I see where the registries should NOT be using scores that have not been paid for to approve stallions. The SOs are getting the benefit of the approval process for nothing. It looks like this has been addressed for the future at least.
                    Holly
                    www.ironhorsefrm.com
                    Oldenburg foals and young prospects
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                    • #30
                      I think you are getting into tricky territory there Iron Horse. Ultimately it would be up to the membership through their elected Board of Directors to make that decision. I sure would want to have some imput into how my particular horse breeding association would deal with this situation. Also remember one of the horses we are speaking of has since changed ownership I understand and is no longer in the USA. I believe each individual association and breed registry has to make their own decisions whether to get involved in a legal matter dealing with an owner and another third party.

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                      • Original Poster

                        #31
                        The registries are making their own decisions (which we support fully). They have always worked independently from us and each other. Just ask any one of them and they will have the same answer.
                        Summer Stoffel
                        Silver Creek International/Equicore
                        www.silvercreeksporthorses.com
                        www.equicore.com

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                        • #32
                          Sorry for going off topic, but was wondering of there was a reason the OP is switching between SN's on this thread. Just curious, I apologize for being nosy!
                          McDowell Racing Stables

                          Home Away From Home

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                          • #33
                            Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
                            Sorry for going off topic, but was wondering of there was a reason the OP is switching between SN's on this thread. Just curious, I apologize for being nosy!
                            They aren't switching. It's two different posters.
                            Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

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                            • #34
                              Laurie -

                              Summer is Silver Creek and Barb is Showjumper66. Barb was SJ66 long before there was a Silver Creek.

                              It does get confusing sometimes!
                              www.debracysporthorses.com
                              Home of Sea Accounts xx
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                              • #35
                                I don't see where the registries are being asked to be bill collectors. I see where the registries should NOT be using scores that have not been paid for to approve stallions. The SOs are getting the benefit of the approval process for nothing.
                                Agree 100%. If Silver Creek had started this thread and stated that she has asked Registry A to collect the monies owing to her - whole 'nuther ballgame. I think she'd have exactly "0" support

                                But ... she is requesting that any scores / approvals awarded through the test be withheld until she advises that payment has been made to her

                                100% legit in my eyes ...

                                The ORC (Ontario Racing Commission) will intervene and support vendors in the same manner. If the blacksmith or feed man or vet advises that ABC Farm owes them XXX dollars, the ORC will withhold any purse money in that farm's account until the debtor advises they have been paid. They are not asking the ORC to collect any money for them - they are asking for their assistance and support in collecting legit funds due to them

                                BIG difference and the same as what is being discussed here
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                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by showjumpers66 View Post
                                  Yes and no. In order to be an Elite Hanoverian stallion he would need to have been approved Hanoverian and then met the additional requirements to be awarded Elite status. I did verify on the FN Yearbook site that he was never approved by the Hanoverian Verband, so I don't believe that it is possible for him to have achieved Elite status.
                                  Which is why it bears repeating that Mare Owners should check with their Registry BEFORE they pay the stud fee, BEFORE they participate in a stallion auction, or definitely before the mare is bred, to verify the Stallion's status (Approval, current fees paid) and to ensure your foal will be eligible for registration/branding with said Registry! It's too late once she's pregnant and you might end up being stuck between a rock and a very hard place. While most stallion owners are honest and factual individuals, some are most notably not. If a stallion's web page claims their stallion is approved with X, Y, and Z registries and you want to use Z Registry, call the Z Registry and verify.

                                  I cannot speak regarding CSHA since I am not a member of this registry; however, my experiences with the Hanoverian Verband, the GOV, SWANA, the KWPN-NA and the RPSI have shown these Registries to be reliable, ethical, honest, and straight forward - if they tell you they will accept/register a foal sired by Z stallion, then it shall happen. And other breeders using Am.Han and Holstein have also repeatedly verified how good these registries are.

                                  [/I]Mare owners: BEFORE YOU BREED YOUR MARE, CALL (your registry) AND VERIFY. Call and verify. Call and verify!!!![/I]
                                  Last edited by rodawn; Feb. 19, 2013, 07:34 PM.
                                  Practice! Patience! Persistence!
                                  http://www.mariposasporthorses.com/
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                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by cyriz's mom View Post
                                    Laurie -

                                    Summer is Silver Creek and Barb is Showjumper66. Barb was SJ66 long before there was a Silver Creek.

                                    It does get confusing sometimes!
                                    My mistake! Sorry.
                                    McDowell Racing Stables

                                    Home Away From Home

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                                    • #38
                                      I can speak for the CSHA as I am a member And yes the attributes held to the above organziations certainly do hold true to the CSHA as well.

                                      I did some more checking on my own and I now believe that when Aloha was CSHA approved (presumably under the sight unseen clause in our studbook) that he WAS in fact approved by the RPSI & ISR OLD. And also he was listed on the Canadian Livestock Records Corporation with the Canadian Warmblood Horse Breeders Association...he already has many foals on the ground registered with that particular organization. So either way he would have been "doubly" eligible for breeding approval with the CSHA when that request for his stallion approval came in from the new owner. How could they not approve and licence him based on his prior approvals with the above two associations? Funny enough the 70 day stallion test scores that were on the CLRC site have now been removed though. And that is weird. Thankful for archived Internet files.....still all there.
                                      Last edited by cherham; Feb. 20, 2013, 08:18 AM. Reason: spelling

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                                      • #39
                                        cherham - yes, I noticed that Aloha has one foal registered CWHBA.

                                        Not specifically relating to Aloha but interesting to a Canadian breeder - you're saying that he was eligible to be approved and placed on the CSHA books based on his CWHBA approval? If that is in fact the case, that will be handy for other stallions here in Canada, no need to be inspected by both registries anymore, just do the CWHBA inspection and approval process and pay for your approval into CSHA books.

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                                        • #40
                                          You know, it's really none of my business but I've been thinking and have come up with a perfect win/win solution if in fact Aloha's CSHA approval hinges on his stallion test being paid for.


                                          Let's say there is $6000 outstanding.


                                          And let's chose to believe that he bred 60 mares last year at the $1200 stud fee he was advertised at.


                                          Why not offer 10 specially priced breedings to Aloha at $600 each with that money going directly to Silvercreek? There should be a lot of people willing to do that if 60 were willing to pay $1200 before he produced BYH at Devon, and still be enough mare owners willing to pay full price that his new owners make some money.


                                          So - Silvercreek gets paid.


                                          Aloha gets a new owner free and clear from any connection to Jill.


                                          Pikturesque Farm gets their stallion CSHA approved, and good PR for taking responsibility for getting Silvercreek paid.


                                          Ashland stops getting bad PR for whatever their role is in this.


                                          The CSHA doesn't approve a stallion based on a 70 day text that wasn't paid for.


                                          And some mare owners get a bargain. If for some reason he doesn't get the early bookings at the super special price it gives the new owners a heads up that maybe all wasn't as it seems with the bookings they were told he's had in the past.


                                          And then everyone lives happily ever after.




                                          And there's my random solution for a situation that has nothing to do with me.

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