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DNA quesstion for the experts...

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  • DNA quesstion for the experts...

    What does: Color markers~EEAa mean???
    www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
    Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma

  • #2
    EE - Homozygous for Black, cannot produce a chestnut
    Aa - Heterozygous for Agouti, black is kept to the points
    Alison/Mikali Farms
    www.mikalifarms.com

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    • Original Poster

      #3
      Thanks...that was my guess. This was a filly I sold last year - HZ for tobiano, too.
      www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
      Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma

      Comment


      • #4
        Yes, EE = homozygous black, cannot produce anything red-based (no chestnut, palomino, etc).

        Aa means hetero for Agouti, but assuming you didn't do this at Pet DNA, you don't know if that's bay or brown, unless the horse looks obviously one or the other. Which filly is this?

        AND HZ tobi? *swoon*
        ______________________________
        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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        • Original Poster

          #5
          The filly tested is "Rainmaker" on our For Sale page. She is obviously a bay. I'm keeping a full sister, "Royal Image", who is dark chocolate bay and has about 80% dark to white.... (my preference for English horses). What are the chances Royal would test the same as her full sister?? I won't have Royal tested as our TB stallion is very dark bay or brown and I know the filly is homozygous for tobiano. I'm thinking she will have a super foal by the 16.3 TB stallion we got in 2011 and haven't bred yet!!! The market is so sucky out here there is no point in breeding more!! Thanks for your input.
          www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
          Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma

          Comment


          • #6
            Yep, Rainmaker is bay, so Aa in its true sense.

            Royal Image is brown, so while she may well test Aa through any place other than Pet DNA, she would actually be Ata (hetero for Agouti, with the 1 copy being brown instead of bay).

            Royal Image HAS to test Aa, as did Rainmaker, since they are both black-based but not black, and the stallion is black and can only pass his "a". So, you don't need to test the agouti status of any of these full siblings who are black-based but not black They will test Aa, and the phenotype will (nearly always) tell you if the A is really A (bay) or if it's At (brown)
            ______________________________
            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              JB - you are a genetic genius!!! How are you making the delaration of brown on Royal vs bay?? We have always referred to her as dark bay as she has the black mane and tail, knees and hocks. Where to you change from bay to brown?? Just curious. Our new stallion was advertised as brown, but JC papers say "dark bay or brown.... he looks dark bay to me. Can hetero agouti x2 produce black??
              www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
              Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma

              Comment


              • #8
                With these 2 it's very, very easy Rainmaker is just so obviously bay - the whole tone of her color is a red undertone, and she's so (relatively) light. Brown CAN be as light as she is, but it would be much more obviously gold/orange undertoned.

                I knew Royal would be brown before even seeing her picture since you originally said "dark chocolate bay". I've never seen one described that color that wasn't brown, many of them tested Look at her undertone compared to Rain's - much more on the orange/gold side.

                Pretty much any time you hear someone describe a horse as "dark bay" or "black bay" or "dark chocolate bay", it's brown

                Browns usually DO have black points just like bays That's a myth that if they're brown, their points will be brown to. They CAN have brown points, but that's not nearly as common as having black.

                Some horses are difficult to tell. They look reddish or gold-ish depending on the light or time of year/coat, or they're just an odd mix of in between that doesn't really scream one or the other. I haven't seen enough of those tested yet to get a better grasp on which way they tend to fall. I have a mare who looks positively bay in her Summer coat, positively brown in her Winter coat, and I NEED to get her tested - several folks I know have horses like that and we ALL need to get them tested LOL I DO think mine is bay, but we're also wondering if these horses might be AAt - bay but carrying brown, and somehow the brown is having a seasonal effect on them, ie the Winter coat (and for these iffy ones, it's always Summer = bay, Winter = brown in looks).

                Absolutely hetero Agouti can product black Aa x Aa, whatever the A form, has a 25% chance of producing aa, so if the horse is also EE or Ee, it's black
                ______________________________
                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  This is so interesting. As a TB person I've come to accept Bay and Dark Bay/Brown as the lump of TB colors!!! So you are saying the really dark ones are different than what I call medium or red bays??
                  We have an ISH mare out of a obviously "bay" dam by a darker bay stallion. I've always referred to her as "chocolate black" as she is very dark brown/almost black, but with a tinge of chocolate to her. No blacker legs - just the same all over. Bred to Puchi's Rambo she had two bays - one with minimal white, the other with a blaze, four stockings, but the most unusual thing...all four legs had an inch of solid black ermine at the coronet band giving her four black hooves, but with white stockings above...Really cool!! The other two foals were pure white with black pigmented, chestnut medicine hats, that faded to white. Bred to our black and white tobiano she had 4 foals - two true black/white and two dark brown/white. She always had spectacular babies and it was interesting to see what color she produced!! Now I can see that she must be Ee & Aa??? Is that right?? I have no interest in testing...I guess I just like to be surprised!!!
                  www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
                  Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by crosscreeksh View Post
                    So you are saying the really dark ones are different than what I call medium or red bays??
                    Yep With few exceptions, anything "really dark" is brown. I have seen just a couple of "really dark" ones that were really bay, but had an extreme amount of sooty, but even then if you were to see them side by side, you could easily tell the difference.

                    We have an ISH mare out of a obviously "bay" dam by a darker bay stallion. I've always referred to her as "chocolate black" as she is very dark brown/almost black, but with a tinge of chocolate to her. No blacker legs - just the same all over.
                    Yep, she would be brown

                    Bred to Puchi's Rambo she had two bays
                    If they were truly bay, then that was Puchi's doing. Being chestnut, you can't see his Agouti, but he was obviously carrying at least 1 copy of bay. If he ever produced a black (E?aa) horse, then his Agouti status would have to have been Aa, hetero for bay (no brown)

                    - one with minimal white, the other with a blaze, four stockings, but the most unusual thing...all four legs had an inch of solid black ermine at the coronet band giving her four black hooves, but with white stockings above...Really cool!!
                    I love that The hoof color is based on that last single layer of cells at the coronet band, so you can have pink skin all the way down to that point and still have dark feet, which is even more unusual. I don't see that mare on your page, but would love to see the filly you're talking about

                    The other two foals were pure white with black pigmented, chestnut medicine hats, that faded to white. Bred to our black and white tobiano she had 4 foals - two true black/white and two dark brown/white. She always had spectacular babies and it was interesting to see what color she produced!!
                    Now I can see that she must be Ee & Aa??? Is that right?? I have no interest in testing...I guess I just like to be surprised!!!
                    Ata As for Ee - what do you mean by "pure white with black pigmented, chestnut medicine hats"?
                    ______________________________
                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      We had a chestnut foal born last summer (chestnut mom/black dad) and he is turning ?????? At first I thought bay but his legs don't seem black anymore (they were blackish at one point) his mane is black, but his tail is still light and foalish . I can't wait until later this spring when he sheds out and we see what we got. I think color genetics is fascinating. I wish I knew more.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Picture? Some bays can be born so light they might look chestnut to the uneducated eye. Many chestnuts go through very odd sheds in the first year or two and can look positively black, or brown, even bay depending on the state of the coat.
                        ______________________________
                        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by JB View Post
                          Yep With few exceptions, anything "really dark" is brown. I have seen just a couple of "really dark" ones that were really bay, but had an extreme amount of sooty, but even then if you were to see them side by side, you could easily tell the difference.


                          Yep, she would be brown


                          If they were truly bay, then that was Puchi's doing. Being chestnut, you can't see his Agouti, but he was obviously carrying at least 1 copy of bay. If he ever produced a black (E?aa) horse, then his Agouti status would have to have been Aa, hetero for bay (no brown)


                          I love that The hoof color is based on that last single layer of cells at the coronet band, so you can have pink skin all the way down to that point and still have dark feet, which is even more unusual. I don't see that mare on your page, but would love to see the filly you're talking about


                          Ata As for Ee - what do you mean by "pure white with black pigmented, chestnut medicine hats"?
                          ************

                          Look on our web page. For Sale section/Sold. The filly is named, "Bravo" and shown only as a foal. (I named her after having had two white ones!! I told the mare I would really prefer a bay with chrome. When she was born, "Bravo" was my first response!!) The white socks/black "bracelets" doesn't show up in the baby pictures.

                          If you look in the Gallery section you will see two whites - "White Lightning" and "Top Hat". They were both totally pink skinned except for the black medicine hat skin around their poll and ears. Born with chestnut hair there - it faded out to white.

                          "Fairly Blue", another white one by Rambo, but out of a different mother, has no obvious black pigmented medicine hat, but has a large brown spot on her windpipe with black skin under it. I really had to resist the urge to name her "Lucky Charm"!!

                          In the Stallion section/Puchi's Rambo, you can see his full brother, "Tosa Powhawea", my riding horse. He is pink skinned with a small black pigmented medicine hat, but as he has aged he has developed black skinned "leopard" spots all over his body!!! I am not an App lover and often had to explain that "my App is actually pure TB"!!!

                          I specify black skin vs. pink skin (as the paint reg does) to define pigment instead of just scattered or splotches of white hair.
                          www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
                          Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by crosscreeksh View Post
                            Look on our web page. For Sale section/Sold. The filly is named, "Bravo" and shown only as a foal. (I named her after having had two white ones!! I told the mare I would really prefer a bay with chrome. When she was born, "Bravo" was my first response!!) The white socks/black "bracelets" doesn't show up in the baby pictures.
                            Hehe, cute!

                            If you look in the Gallery section you will see two whites - "White Lightning" and "Top Hat". They were both totally pink skinned except for the black medicine hat skin around their poll and ears. Born with chestnut hair there - it faded out to white.
                            Dominant White, in the all/most-white form, seems to like to leave some color around the poll, but as you saw, it fairly quickly tends to fade. No idea why it does that. Too bad, the little hat is cool lol

                            "Fairly Blue", another white one by Rambo, but out of a different mother, has no obvious black pigmented medicine hat, but has a large brown spot on her windpipe with black skin under it. I really had to resist the urge to name her "Lucky Charm"!!
                            LOL

                            In the Stallion section/Puchi's Rambo, you can see his full brother, "Tosa Powhawea", my riding horse. He is pink skinned with a small black pigmented medicine hat, but as he has aged he has developed black skinned "leopard" spots all over his body!!! I am not an App lover and often had to explain that "my App is actually pure TB"!!!
                            It's pretty common for the DWs to have very speckled skin that isn't very apparent at all when they are foals

                            I specify black skin vs. pink skin (as the paint reg does) to define pigment instead of just scattered or splotches of white hair.
                            LOL, good idea
                            ______________________________
                            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Thanks for all the feedback!! When you get "rested", I have other questions!!!
                              www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
                              Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                LOL, spit 'em out
                                ______________________________
                                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  FYI, while most of this has been discussing the possibility of getting a black from 2 heterozygous agouti genes, what you don't know is if the mare and stallion are homo/hetero for the red factor (E) If both of them are Ee (as the e, aka chestnut color, can be masked by the E) then you haver a 25% chance of a chestnut, reguardless of Agouti status, as the Agouti gene only works on black pigment.
                                  ---------------------------

                                  ~Once you have ridden the tiger it is impossible to dismount~

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Correct - while there is a 25% chance of an ee foal, the fact that both are Aa means there is also a chance of a black foal.
                                    ______________________________
                                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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