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Biggest challenge for breeders in NA?

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  • #61
    We need an area(s) that is THE place to go to look for young horses.
    Dressage at Devon. It's the largest breed show in the world. All of the horses there are evaluated by a judge, you can watch them in the ring, you can watch them in the warm up ring, you can walk around the stables and talk to the owners and breeders. If you're not sure you want a 'real' baby, i.e. foal to unstarted 3yo, there are the 3, 4, 5 and 6 yo Materiale Classes (under saddle), there are the Suitable to Become a Dressage Horse by age classes, there are the Young Horse Classes. All the breeders are happy to talk to you about what they have at the show and what they have at home. All are groomed and braided to within an inch of their lives, you can see how they all handle with all the excitement around them.

    I really don't understand with all the complaints about "Wah, poor me, there's no place to see a lot of horses at one time in this country so I have to go to Europe", that these people don't come to Devon and see 400 youngsters, ages foal to 6 years, in hand and under saddle, all from Tuesday through Friday, the last week of September.

    And I'll never understand why, if you don't like the horse's registered name, that you have to reregister it with a new name and lose its history. All you have to do is change the Show Name with USEF and keep everything else. No biggy!
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!

    Comment


    • #62
      As a buyer of young horses, I (like LucasB) will give my perspective.

      If you want to make a decent profit with the horses you have bred, and which are not sold as weanlings, the horse really needs to be under saddle. You do not need a classically trained rider to back a horse and put 60 days on it. There are tons of riders who break yearlings for the track, or Western riders who break 2 year olds for their Futurities. I have used both and gotten back well mannered young horses who can walk trot and canter -- enough so that a potential buyer can sit on it and see what the horse feels like.

      This means that horses have to be backed sooner than spring of their 3 year old year. Purists who insist that it is not good horsemanship to back and ride a young horse will be left sitting with their inventory even as breeders who are true COMMERCIAL breeders (anyone who breeds to sell is a commercial breeder) are usurping your market. I include European breeders in this "breed to SELL" category. And these breeders know how to showcase and market their horses.

      The Internet is your friend, but it must be used effectively. In my search, which spanned several months, I only saw two coming 3 year olds which were free jumped over a height which gave me an indication of their potential. One of these breeders is Silver Creek (SH66), and the other is an outfit in S. Dakota.

      I do not feel it is up to me to guess how good a horse will be; SHOW ME. I don't think there is any reason that a 2 year old cannot be free jumped as high as its talent allows. I bought a horse from SJ66 which had a video of the horse easily jumping over 4'. And it was a quality video. I used to think that I was the worst videographer in the world. Well, I am not even in the bottom 1/2 if the sales videos I watched are any indication.

      The young horse classes at WEF are a start in the right direction. Breeders need to showcase their inventory as young horses. If you think you do not have any competitions at which you can show your babies, then you need to look for some.

      The hunter world has its 3 and 4 year old Futurity and also 2' baby green classes.

      And the event world has a "Future Event Horse" division for 3 and 4 year olds. The horse I just bought will be started as an event horse because there are a number of Combined Tests (dressage and stadium jumping) around. They have dressage tests which are just walk - trot and call for basic obedience. It costs about $40 to tenter these. There are also horse trials with a GAG division (green as grass) which include X-rail jumping and a "cross country" of about 10 - 12 jumps, 12" - 18" high. I intend to get my baby out and about and used to competing by going in these classes. There is no reason why breeders of jumpers cannot avail themselves of the benefits of the hunters, dressage and eventing worlds, too.

      My new horse will decide what he wants to be when he is about 5, but until then I will avail myself of whatever outings and suitable competitions I can find to give him a head start on his future.

      Breeders need to stop looking at their babies as cute, fuzzy creatures and start to treat their product in a business like fashion. They need to start them under saddle and/or free jumping and get top quality videos of them as late 2 year olds. I am not advocating advanced work, or even constant work at that age. But enough work so that their talent and temperament can be assessed by potential buyers.

      THEN US buyers just might stay home and travel to places at which they are assured of young stock who have something to show off.

      Yes, there are problems that are particular to the US, but the problem of quality sales and marketing are, to a great extent, self imposed. Instead of looking to Europe and envying their breed registries and Bereiters (sp?), US breeders need to think outside the box and take advantage of what the US does have.
      "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

      Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump

      Comment


      • #63
        LH - with all due respect - it is not so EASY here to find a solid "starter" situation for youngsters - affordable is important but even more important? The quality of the starting. I don't know re the "eventing" world - I do watch a fair number of lower level events and I thin they are really fun. But I also think I see a lot of unbroke horses. As for "hunter" babies - really hard in the US to find true "horse starters" and if one sends to a BNT because it seems right for marketing? That BNT is going show to show to show and it ends up the "breaking" of your youngster is happening (not) at a show. So while I agree under saddle is GOOD - getting to the point that a US trainer is interested is another story since in EUROPE - there is a whole system of the "middle" - the highly trained riders who take the 2-4 year olds and get them broke. On the flat - flat flat flat.
        The only article that I have recently read re how to MAKE a superstar was the one about Rich Fellers. Flat flat flat work . But how he can do that ? Is because he has one benefactor. Every other "trainer" I meet is making ends meet going show to show to show. I say it again. They say they can't MAKE money staying at home "training" -
        Thus the gap - a big gap.
        "Her life was okay. Sometimes she wished she were sleeping with the right man instead of with her dog, but she never felt she was sleeping with the wrong dog."



        www.dontlookbackfarm.com

        Comment


        • #64
          So, I have some questions for all the breeders that contributed to this thread. I'm a young horse trainer, it is my passion, I have started over 200 horses under saddle. I currently work with breeders from MI, KY, GA and FL, but my question is how and where would somebody like me market my skills to breeders?
          I have a very good track record for selling and moving young stock (between 3 and 6YO), but because I specialize in young horses it is hard to get a reputation outside my local area, but I really would love to work with dedicated breeders.
          Chronicle of the horse? Do I contact people and offer my services? I know the word of mouth is a big deal and I barn has been full for the past year, but I'm running into a 'good problem', I have sold almost all the horses from the regular breeders I work for and so I'm starting to run out supply .
          There are good young horse trainers out there, but it is hard to market our skills, because there is not really a structured young horse show circuit like there is in Europe.
          Young horse classes are starting, but it still only the beginning...

          Comment


          • #65
            I can only give you my experience. Before I found someone to start my first 3 year old I attended many shows and looked at who was riding the 4-5-6 year olds in the FEI classes and who was riding in training and first level classes on what I perceived to be young horses. I watched them ride in the warm up ring as well. I took notes and then tried to contact the riders I liked. I now have some knowledge of who is good, fair, and solid young horse riders in my area. Hence, I would say showing these youngsters is a good start for you if that is an option. Also, do you have local GMO to advertise in?


            Originally posted by mademoiselle View Post
            So, I have some questions for all the breeders that contributed tof this thread. I'm a young horse trainer, it is my passion, I have started over 200 horses under saddle. I currently work with breeders from MI, KY, GA and FL, but my question is how and where would somebody like me market my skills to breeders?
            I have a very good track record for selling and moving young stock (between 3 and 6YO), but because I specialize in young horses it is hard to get a reputation outside my local area, but I really would love to work with dedicated breeders.
            Chronicle of the horse? Do I contact people and offer my services? I know the word of mouth is a big deal and I barn has been full for the past year, but I'm running into a 'good problem', I have sold almost all the horses from the regular breeders I work for and so I'm starting to run out supply .
            There are good young horse trainers out there, but it is hard to market our skills, because there is not really a structured young horse show circuit like there is in Europe.
            Young horse classes are starting, but it still only the beginning...
            Read about my time at the Hannoveraner Verband Breeders Courses:
            http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2011.html
            http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2012.html

            Comment


            • #66
              I strongly agree with Tim's post as we are involved in the same challenges in our Hanoverian breeding program.

              Marketing, getting the exciting prospects to top trainers, placing the amateur's candidates into good hands, working toward the one horse/one lifetime number solution to the "lost horse problem" are some of the daily challenges. I breed a few horses because I love all aspects of breeding, foaling, bringing along foals and showing the youngsters a bit in-hand. Though preferring to place the product as babies, we find satisfaction in selling them as well-started performance horses.

              Breeding so few, I get immense satisfaction from a close relationship with every horse we have, the mares and their produce. I enjoy developing them and getting them into the proper lifetime career, whether show hunter, show jumper, eventer, or happy low-to-mid level dressage performer.

              I have very good support within the MidAtlantic Hanoverian Breeders group and within AHS itself, also feeling we have a good relationship with our Hannoveraner Verband and generally support its efforts in continuing to improve Hanoverians internationally with its new rule changes.

              Diane Halpin/Laurel Leaf Hanoverians: Facebook
              Last edited by dianehalpin; Feb. 11, 2013, 11:28 PM. Reason: word change

              Comment


              • #67
                And therein lies one of the biggest challenges for BREEDERS (which is the topic of this thread). How do we get RIDERS and TRAINERS to value what we do?
                This is very frustrating for me. My best broodmare has had 11 offspring to date, two of which are still in my possession and will be sold with lifetime USEF and USDF numbers not that that guarantees anything. Although I know from her previous owner the basic information on each of her 9 other offspring....it has been impossible to obtain new and current information. Records are really hard to find and follow which makes me suspect name changes. Two trainers...well known ones...don't bother to return my emails or calls asking for the new owner's name and location of the recently sold offspring just for me to be able to keep track of them...even with permission of the previous owner/breeder. The only two owners I have been able to find has been thru extensive google and FB searching and even then, the update and pictures were very minimal. They show absolutely no interest in hearing about the dam or siblings or anything. The mare is super close to getting her prestatie predicate but I can't seem to get an update! I would even offer a $500 rebate to get some of these adult offspring to their keurings but its such a battle! They just don't see or care about the breeders viewpoint. Arg.....

                Comment


                • #68
                  And it was a quality video. I used to think that I was the worst videographer in the world. Well, I am not even in the bottom 1/2 if the sales videos I watched are any indication.

                  I think an excellent video is key. There are SO many bad videos out there I don't know how people handle it when they shop. Remember, the video footage, particularly the first 30 seconds, is going to be a prospective buyers first impression of your horse so it is imperative that you show your horse in the best light possible. The horse should be clean and well groomed, it should be presented on a surface that doesn't throw the horse off balance or detract from the horse. Show good walk, trot and canter. Don't have someone who is going to shake do the videoing!! This is crazy annoying for buyers and totally takes away from the whole picture. Just little things like this make a big difference and can make or break your sale within a few minits. If you can't do a good video of your horse hire someone who can.
                  www.svhanoverians.com

                  "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Just a thought after seeing what's important to American Breeders. Do the show programs from DaD and the YHS have a place you could type in "this horse is for sale" next to each horse's information? Then again people may not want that don't know. At our biggest showcase every year, the RDS, you can look through all the horses for the various classes with their breeding and it has a "this horse is for sale" tag. The show also has vet staff on hand for vettings of potential sale horses. The set up for vettings reminded me of TB sales.

                    Just throwing that out there in case it might be an idea for down the road.

                    Terri
                    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Donella View Post
                      And it was a quality video. I used to think that I was the worst videographer in the world. Well, I am not even in the bottom 1/2 if the sales videos I watched are any indication.

                      I think an excellent video is key. There are SO many bad videos out there I don't know how people handle it when they shop. Remember, the video footage, particularly the first 30 seconds, is going to be a prospective buyers first impression of your horse so it is imperative that you show your horse in the best light possible. The horse should be clean and well groomed, it should be presented on a surface that doesn't throw the horse off balance or detract from the horse. Show good walk, trot and canter. Don't have someone who is going to shake do the videoing!! This is crazy annoying for buyers and totally takes away from the whole picture. Just little things like this make a big difference and can make or break your sale within a few minits. If you can't do a good video of your horse hire someone who can.
                      I agree that the media one uses is critical.
                      However, someone posted earlier how easy it is for 2 people to get a video, suitable to use as a sales tool.
                      I have to hugely disagree with this! To that person, are you really going to buy it if the video doesn't show you exactly what you are looking for?

                      At the minimum you need 3 people, and two of those had better be able to move the horse appropriately so the 3rd can get some good footage. And, if you want free jumping , add more people. So, a crew of no less than 4, more is better. If you want still photos, add yet another body. (Oh, and if your arena has mirrors. COVER THEM. Expensive lesson learned. )

                      What about the constant requests for NEW footage from people? Yes, young horses change alot, but making monthly videos of them is just not going to happen.
                      I work full time, so does my husband. We are the staff for our place. I am sure there are lots of other small breeders in this same scenario. We live in the midwest, its winter here now, and our horses live outside, because we feel its better for their overall health and mental development. Trying to photograph and video this time of year means hauling horses someplace with an indoor arena and then hairy, sweaty horses that really do not look their best. People say they can see past that, but I have my doubts.
                      We recognize this and try to take photos and videos in spring and fall.

                      As to the comment about needing to see freejumping of bigger heights, its easier said than done. Silver Creek does a fantastic job, I have told SJ66 on several instances they need to put out an educational video or clinic for people on how to propertly prepare and freejump a horse. They are pro's.
                      The rest of us, that do not do it regularly find it far more cumbersome and frankly I am not interested in possibly injuring my young horse, or giving it a bad experience because I am not that saavy about putting them through the chute.
                      Maybe breeders clubs should form and have free jumping/videoing days. Or a farm thats saavy with the jump chute *that has SAFE fencing, footing and jumps* could put on a pay to school your horse type deal.

                      People can come to a central locale, help each other and everyone goes home with a good video and photos. Heck I'd volunteer to run either camera in my area! A couple local friends and I try to do this for each other, but its easier said than done.

                      I am not looking to make excuses, but just give the other side of the viewpoint on why it can be so tough to get these things that so many think are simple.
                      Tracy Geller
                      www.sixpoundfarm.com
                      Find me on Facebook!

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Equilibrium View Post
                        ...Just a thought after seeing what's important to American Breeders. Do the show programs from DaD and the YHS have a place you could type in "this horse is for sale" next to each horse's information?

                        ....

                        Terri
                        Yes, YHS does provide such a space on the program and class list with a space to list price (or not, as the seller wishes) together with contact information.

                        In reference to Tracey's point about the difficulty in obtaining videos, stills and freejumping. We entirely agree! It IS hard and we too do not think that people "see past" the woolies. Repeated requests for videos are a challenge for us and we have a photographer and videographer in the family--just as I know Tracey to be a talented photographer herself.

                        At the risk of belaboring a point, the YHS shows provide an opportunity to spruce up the youngsters and ALL shows have a photographer and videographer filming each and every one. The jump chute schooling class for yearlings and above and the jump chute for 2 through 4 years old are manned by professionals and the chute--here I speak for the Ocala shows ---has been specifically built for this purpose.

                        We expect the selling aspect of these shows to be further promoted by the introduction of the printed catalogues and the Young Jumper Development Program classes which should attract more buyers,pros and trainers. In any case, the photos and videos will provide professional promotional material for your own use. There are other plans in the works to enhance the sales aspect.

                        I realize that Ocala and Wellington are at far too great a distance for most; however, these YHS shows are popping up all around the country! There may be one near you! Or, what is even more fun, consider hosting one either yourself or with others in your area. http://www.younghorseshow.com/
                        Sakura Hill Farm
                        Now on Facebook

                        Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by sixpoundfarm View Post
                          Maybe breeders clubs should form and have free jumping/videoing days. Or a farm thats saavy with the jump chute *that has SAFE fencing, footing and jumps* could put on a pay to school your horse type deal.
                          We have done this pretty regularly over the years. We typically provide the jump chute over a three-day weekend with a six hour window each day. We provide help or permit "do it yourself". We typically charge $25/horse/day either way. We send notices to the local breeders club, post here on CoTH about the opportunity, etc. Last time we did this, we had exactly one outside horse come for the schooling. We seldom have more than 3 or 4.

                          People complain about not having the opportunity/access to do this, but yet they don't take advantage of it when the opportunity is available.
                          "I always remember you as quite the desk chair contrarian." - APirateLooksAtForty

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Rick, please let me know when you schedule this again! I have several for free-jumping practice, and would especially love some handlers around so that I can make good videos! It's tough to do all of this at my place since I'm usually alone!

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Equilibrium View Post
                              Just a thought after seeing what's important to American Breeders. Do the show programs from DaD and the YHS have a place you could type in "this horse is for sale" next to each horse's information? Then again people may not want that don't know. At our biggest showcase every year, the RDS, you can look through all the horses for the various classes with their breeding and it has a "this horse is for sale" tag. The show also has vet staff on hand for vettings of potential sale horses. The set up for vettings reminded me of TB sales.

                              Just throwing that out there in case it might be an idea for down the road.

                              Terri
                              My most recent catalogue/ program for DAD doesn't show a place indicating a horse is for sale. However, if a spectator had a question about a particular horse, the names and addresses of the owners and handlers are in the program. It would be easy to google them or FB friend them for more info. The easiest thing, though, would be to just find the horse and its people in the nearby warmup. Most people at Devon have their barns set up to welcome people, with farm signs, food, etc. It wouldn't take much to find out more about a horse or find out if there are more like it at home.
                              Kendra -- Runningwater Warmbloods
                              Home of EM Raleska (Rascalino/ Warkant) and Donatella M (Furstenball/ Jazz Time)
                              'Like' us on Facebook

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Both the Future Event Horse venue programs and the Hanoverian inspection sites' programs DO usually have a box noting whether or not the youngster is for sale.

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Originally posted by Lucassb View Post
                                  At the risk of upsetting all the wonderful breeders here...

                                  I will tell you that from the perspective of an amateur/buyer... at least for the hunter/jumper rings where I've spent the great majority of my riding life... I will tell you that very, very few people will spend significant money on a young prospect based on the papers..
                                  Lucas, that has been my experience too - I have many friends who are AAs (and even several trainers), and most are just not that educated on bloodlines. Most recognize sire names, and that is where it ends. I have asked many people over the years what their horse's bloodlines are, and most don't know anything beyond sire name! So, while breeders are absolutely correct in using the best dam lines, it is not a marketing tool - many years ago, I posted a thread that was ironically focused on "bloodlines don't matter" because, to most buyers, they just are not a big deal. So many breeders dont like to hear that - and I don't mean bloodlines don't matter, but the average buyer is counting on the breeder to hold that knowledge so they don't have to!

                                  The average buyer wants a horse they can get on and ride. Absolutely.


                                  Originally posted by Lucassb View Post
                                  None of that means a d@mn thing to the USDF, though. God forbid they use the same numbers I've had - for years - through the same NGB. Ohhhhh no, now we need all NEW numbers, both me & the horse. And if you want to register for the Silver Stirrup award program through the PHR (a USEF enterprise)...? Oh no, nothing transfers... you have to send all of it in AGAIN, along with yet another copy of the papers.
                                  .
                                  NO KIDDING! Why can't USDF, USEF, and the GMOs get together and come up with a single horse number? I have a PILE of cards every year that I have to photocopy for each show - three numbers for me (as rider/owner), sometimes 3 numbers for a coach (if I have one at the show), then 2 numbers for my horse. Wouldn't a single rider number and single horse number make things easier for EVERYONE? And perhaps the registries could use that single number as well - so if we signed our horse up as a foal, we could provide it to the registry, and that number would then be attached to those papers. Forever and ever.

                                  There is no single easy fix to making things better for US breeders, but it is really in everyone's best interest to see things get better! We are still the biggest source of reasonably priced sport horses in the US.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by MysticOakRanch View Post
                                    Lucas, that has been my experience too - I have many friends who are AAs (and even several trainers), and most are just not that educated on bloodlines. Most recognize sire names, and that is where it ends. I have asked many people over the years what their horse's bloodlines are, and most don't know anything beyond sire name!
                                    I just wanted to add that while I believe this is largely true in the H/J world, it is not true in the dressage world. A good number of serious dressage riders, AA, JR and open alike, know their horses bloodlines and are interested in what's going on in breeding news- who are the hot young stallions, what is the breeding of the current top GP horses, etc. As an experienced AA shopping for something around 4/5/6 y/o, I'm paying a good deal of attention to bloodlines, and successful siblings, as there is only so much you can tell about upper level talent at that age. I'd rather stack the deck in my favor in terms of a cross with upper level success on both sides, and a history of long-term soundness at that level.

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                                    • #78
                                      SJ66 has answered this question quite well, so I won't repeat her.

                                      What I'll add, since I'm also a buyer, is this: Shopping in the US can be incredibly frustrating, I'm not sure if people are deceptive on purpose, or if they are simply ignorant or barn blind, but I find horses to be more honestly and accurately represented in Europe. If I want a Third Level horse for a client, I want a Third Level horse, not a horse with no flying change and no collection who's been thrown into a double because it's the only way anyone can crank his head down or stop him. Too many people think their horses are "10 movers" even if they move like a Quarter Horse. Breeders, I get it you love what you've bred, but you're not doing anyone any favors exaggerating everything to the brink of lying. It makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about, and it aggravates buyers. The exaggeration and barn blindness doesn't seem to be this way with my Euro friends (or my better US breeder friends.)

                                      Also, why in the US is everything a "Warmblood" or a "Sport Horse" even if it's a Paint cross. If it's a Paint cross please save my time and yours and call it that. If it's a Warmblood please tell me what type, and have registration papers to back it up. And don't make me drag this info out of you or spend 10 minutes scouring your website to find it, please. While we're at it, measure your horses and then tell the truth. If I have a tall client who needs a tall horse, I don't want to go all the way to your farm to see your 17 hand horse who is 16.2 at the most. Also, I'm going to laugh at you when you swear your 15.2 hand 3 year old is going to mature at 17+ hands.

                                      If you don't list a price or a price range I'm not contacting you. Period.

                                      Lastly, I hear the explanations and I know marketing is hard. But if you're going to breed horses as a business, you must treat it like a business. Get your horses started under saddle. Get videos, get photos. If you can't do these things, maybe breeding horses to sell isn't for you. Or else your prices should reflect these things. I may take a chance on a youngster from a bad video if he's cheap, but for full price I expect decent video etc because I'll probably be flying out to see him. If I've got to gamble more on my end, I expect to see it reflected in the price on your end.
                                      "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." George Burns

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                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by joiedevie99 View Post
                                        I just wanted to add that while I believe this is largely true in the H/J world, it is not true in the dressage world. A good number of serious dressage riders, AA, JR and open alike, know their horses bloodlines and are interested in what's going on in breeding news- who are the hot young stallions, what is the breeding of the current top GP horses, etc. As an experienced AA shopping for something around 4/5/6 y/o, I'm paying a good deal of attention to bloodlines, and successful siblings, as there is only so much you can tell about upper level talent at that age. I'd rather stack the deck in my favor in terms of a cross with upper level success on both sides, and a history of long-term soundness at that level.
                                        I agree.
                                        "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." George Burns

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                                        • #80
                                          Biggest problems in my opinion are:

                                          -There is not a culture of breeding warmblood horses on this continent like there is in Europe, and this translates to riders not being particularly interested in the pedigree of their horse. You rarely see riders at an inspection.

                                          -Part of the reason is that trainers don't encourage knowledge of where that horse came from in their clients. They magically come up with a super quality horse, and the papers and the horse' identity conveniently get's lost as the trainer sources these horses for his/her client. Many trainers would rather their clients and his or her competitors not know where that horse came from. Financially it works out better for them, and their clients are O.K. with that. This seems to be more common in the hunter discipline compared to say eventing or dressage.

                                          - Lack of unity in our breeding communityy. We're too divided. This continent is massive and there are so many different breed associations that work across the continent. It would make some sense if they worked regionally, but they don't. We have a lot of breed associations that compete with each other and host inspection tours throughout this content. Many struggle to get decent numbers at each inspections site. They tend to have few spectators, and as a breeder we don't see many other foals and mares to give us a an idea of what else is out there. Joining forces would make breed shows and inspections a BIG event that may even bring out some riders, which will help them support local sales.
                                          www.vandenbrink.ca

                                          https://www.facebook.com/VandenbrinkWarmbloods?fref=ts

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