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Successful WB crosses with APHA blood? Marketability?

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  • Original Poster

    #21
    Originally posted by Lynnwood View Post
    If your looking at a live cover option for the added security. Is it possible to research if there are any other stallions locally that offer live cover ? Perhaps it will give you a few options.
    I've been scouring the web for them, but no, I haven't found anything. If I wanted to go with a Friesian or TB, they are out there, but no WB. I'd not be opposed to TB, but they are all race-bred and the stud fees are quite high compared to their WB counterparts.

    Back to the drawing board! Any suggestions on stallions to consider?

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by Kerole View Post
      I realise I am not in your market (being half way across the world and all!) so this is to be taken with a grain of salt.

      I LOVE a funky coloured horse and have bred a small number myself (in amongst the more usual solids) but I will not look at a horse to buy, or mare or stallion to use that gets its colour from QH or paint lines. Full stop.

      Even if I took my breeder's hat off for a moment, would I buy a part paint/QH riding horse? If I never intended to sell it then maybe. But it's a small maybe.
      See, I'm the opposite but I'm one who buys to keep for life, and though I've bred once, I'm not a breeder. However, I have a TB mare (whom I did breed) and I seriously looked at some APHA stallions to give me a spotted Hunter.

      I am not alone, though I realize we're not a large market, among folks who would LOVE a spotted Hunter or Dressage horse, and if it could do the job I wanted, or had the potential (ie by a Paint stallion who was already known to be able to put nice sporthorse types on the ground WITH a Hunter jump, then being a Paint would not remotely put me off. I'd LOVE to find one with that sort of pedigree as, all else equal when comparing to a spotted WB stallion, the cost is probably going to be less. Good for me, though I realize not so good for you, the breeder LOL

      So, that's the flip side
      ______________________________
      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

      Comment


      • #23
        But I think a stock horse crossed on a TB is a much more known quantity.... The stock horses use them very liberally and there a good market for them (although typically at lower prices than a comparable WB) but when you toss the WB into the mix, it is just throwing a huge mess of other genes into the "what might come out" lotto that breeders play every year.
        The rebel in the grey shirt

        Comment


        • #24
          But, it REALLY depends on the WB lines. Some of them are heavily TB. Some of the "stock horse" horses are 7/8ths TB and you might as well be breeding to one.

          I'd never breed a heavier WB to a QH/Paint, no matter how nice the QH, if he had a lot of stockhorse *type* behind him. I wouldn't breed to a QH like that anyway if my goal was to produce a sporthorse, no matter how nice either horses are
          ______________________________
          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

          Comment


          • #25
            Also I sent you a PM - Live cover - not so much of an option but I used Concerto Grosso and he's HUGELY fertile. It seems like if you throw his semen in the direction of a mare in season, it will somehow magically find it's way to the mark.

            We used him twice, once right on time, and the other time the vet was concerned that we'd ordered semen too early (decided to hang onto that follicle like crazy). First cycle pregnancies both times anyhow.

            I also think he's one of the true bargains of the nice sport horses out there. He's licensed Old-NA and AHHA.

            https://www.facebook.com/pages/Conce...ref=ts&fref=ts
            The rebel in the grey shirt

            Comment


            • #26
              Bred my mare to Concerto Grosso as well and had a first cycle pregnancy. Rosemarie was great to work with.

              Comment


              • #27
                There are alot of "racebred" Thoroughbred stallions that aren't filling their books for the season. You can often get a better deal than the advertised stud fee through agents if the stallion is syndicated or even if he isn't. Many of those standing to the racing market have wonderful conformation, gaits and pedigree for the sport disciplines. Not sure how far - but there is a Cozzeen stallion standing in Washington for $500, damsire is Seattle Slew. You could check with the racing associations in your state and nearby for directories or check the stallion registers of The Blood Horse magazine. You could be pleasantly surprised if you want live cover. It never hurts to call a stallion owner and see what might be negotiated. Shopping around might reveal better opportunities for your mare with a wb or a TB that offers more than the local APHA.
                PennyG

                Comment


                • #28
                  http://www.eswaterford.com/ In Chico CA. Maybe ship her down to their vet care?

                  www.crestlinefarm.com Ship up to Lower Washington

                  Below are in Oregon- you will have to call about the live cover

                  http://www.pacintgen.com/christopherrobin.htm -not approved waiting on performance requirements
                  http://mycorteo.com/index.html
                  http://www.breeding-stallions.com/stallion1237.html
                  http://www.cedarwoodsequestrian.com/default.cgi?id=61
                  Draumr Hesta Farm
                  "Wenn Du denkst es geht nicht mehr, kommt von irgendwo ein kleines Licht daher"
                  Member of the COTH Ignorant Disrepectful F-bombs!*- 2Dogs Farm

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #29
                    Not sure why I didn't think of it before, but what about Gatsby (for AI, not live)? I'm not completely ruling out AI, the option is still on the table. Gatsby is just up the road from me, I wonder if I might be able to go see him in person...

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Gatsby is actually now standing at, and will be showing Hunters out of, Mountain Creek Sporthorses He's not SOLD to them, it's an arrangement between them and the Wiltons
                      ______________________________
                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #31
                        Next (silly) question:

                        What would the registry options be for a foal by a TB stallion? I've always been confused by this.

                        As I mentioned, my mare is reg. Westphalian.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Sent you a PM
                          "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by Heinz 57 View Post
                            Just curious if anyone has had or knows of successful crosses of WB with some APHA (or QH, I suppose) blood.

                            Plan B for my WB mare is to try and breed her again this year, if she is going to be out of commission for a while (currently slightly lame). And in my perusing of (mostly WB) stallions to choose from, I've run across a local-to-me APHA stallion that has gone through AWS approval (I know, NBD) and has a nice sporthorse build with an unbeatable temperament. I went so far as to go see him in person, and was rather impressed. I should also add that this particular stallion is nearly 50% TB blood, which may account for the more sport-type build.

                            I'm giving the idea some consideration, but wonder about the marketability of such a cross? Offspring could (would) be AWS registered, for whatever that is worth - and while the intention would be to produce something for my own enjoyment, I would still like to ensure that the market value is there in the event that selling became necessary.
                            Over the years we bred a few stock horse crosses using Meisterwind, a Trakehner on Appaloosa and paint mares. We always got pretty, nice moving youngsters with a good jump and very good temperaments. They were never hard to sell for decent money.
                            Patty
                            www.rivervalefarm.com
                            Follow us on facebook - https://www.facebook.com/pages/River...ref=ts&fref=ts

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Heard lovely things about Gatsby. I also would not breed her to a Paint stallion unless I was sure it was a keeper. I don't think they are awful but as someone else said, lots of unknown variables involved. I would also anticipate it being a tough sell until it was under saddle or at that age anyway.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #35
                                Originally posted by magicteetango View Post
                                Heard lovely things about Gatsby. I also would not breed her to a Paint stallion unless I was sure it was a keeper. I don't think they are awful but as someone else said, lots of unknown variables involved. I would also anticipate it being a tough sell until it was under saddle or at that age anyway.
                                Yes, I've decided to pursue other avenues. I appreciate everyone's input. Off to start a new thread about registry options.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  We have a great TB/Paint that has shown the Jr Hunters and Eqs very successfully. He's not for sale but we've had a lot of offers. A nice horse will sell regardless of color or breeding IMO.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    honestly - a good horse is a good horse - no matter what the breeding.

                                    the question is: what would you want to market it for?

                                    i do believe any sound, well trained horse has a market. and there are a bizillion QH's out there for a reason.

                                    So, i would be more concerned that the stallion fit the mare more than the fact that he is part QH.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by Heinz 57 View Post
                                      Good lord no. My mare is a grey, so probably not the first choice for anyone who wants a sure pinto. I haven't had her DNA'd to find out if she's homozygous grey, although that's probably a good idea.

                                      You've inadvertently discovered part of the reason I consider this stallion (other than liking him as a match in general). After a VERY spendy failed attempt at AI with this mare, a nice stallion who is local and offering live cover seems an attractive option. The SO and I have talked at length about the process and she runs a top notch operation, not some backyard mudlot.

                                      Now, looking back, I got taken for a ride by my vet (who I won't be using again). We started the process just after she'd cycled in May, put her on Regumate and then cycled her back in. She positively FLEW to a 29/30 follicle, fast enough that he was doing ultrasounds 2x a day to avoid missing the window. Did that for 3-4 days until she slowed down again and went back to checking her once a day until she was a 34/35 (IIRC, memory is fuzzy - I got married right around the same time). Inseminated 2x 12 hours apart just pre- and post-ovulation, put her back on Regumate and preg checked at 19 days and found nothing. I'm sure there were a few more steps to the process that I've forgotten, but the farm calls alone for 2x a day ultrasounds put me in the poor house. Now, I suppose he could've missed it and there's a baby in there somewhere, but that seems unlikely.

                                      That's the truth. I'm afraid to run up another $2500 vet bill with nothing to show for it!
                                      maybe you can find a reputable vet where you can take your mare and leave her for a week or two? it sure would save on call charges. this is what i did because the idea of my vet having to travel to me daily was sobering - so off my mare went for a week long stay at his place. it was actually quite nice price wise.

                                      good luck no matter what you do. if you are interested in producing a WB x pony many pony stallions do live cover...

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by Heinz 57 View Post
                                        Just curious if anyone has had or knows of successful crosses of WB with some APHA (or QH, I suppose) blood.

                                        Plan B for my WB mare is to try and breed her again this year, if she is going to be out of commission for a while (currently slightly lame). And in my perusing of (mostly WB) stallions to choose from, I've run across a local-to-me APHA stallion that has gone through AWS approval (I know, NBD) and has a nice sporthorse build with an unbeatable temperament. I went so far as to go see him in person, and was rather impressed. I should also add that this particular stallion is nearly 50% TB blood, which may account for the more sport-type build.

                                        I'm giving the idea some consideration, but wonder about the marketability of such a cross? Offspring could (would) be AWS registered, for whatever that is worth - and while the intention would be to produce something for my own enjoyment, I would still like to ensure that the market value is there in the event that selling became necessary.
                                        Cocolalla Creek Sport horses has a successful program. I think there will always be a market for trained horses with a sound mind and body.
                                        I LOVE my Chickens!

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          I have had several. Mare 1) she is a half TB Paint that was a successful hunter/jumper herself.She had a very TB build to her. She was a fabulous mover as were all of her foals. Had 2 foals by Special Memories: not sure what happened to 1 of them down the road, one went on to be a very successful A circuit hunter. A third foal by a different stallion also went on to be an A circuit hunter. Mare B was a Paint I bought in foal already to Duellglanz. She was actually bought with the intent of breeding to my TB stallion, so not my breeding. That foal did in fact come out favoring the Paint confo...smaller and stockier in build. He was smallish and not a super mover but gosh that horse could jump. He jumped out of the pasture all the time. He was initially sold to a lady down the street who was not very tall and did not want a huge horse. He kept escaping and turning back up on my doorstep. Or barn door as the case may be. He was eventually sold to someone that was an event rider. He never did excell at the dressage phase but he did really well in the 2 jumping phases. The mare had 2 other foals for me: 1 by a dressage Arab that was carefully chosen to match her flaws (that foal was one of the best moving foals I ever bred odd pedigree aside). He was sold to an Arab breeder, was a champion sporthorse in hand for half Arab classes on the west coast and last I knew was still intact as a stallion out west. The third foal was by my TB stallion and that filly is now a successful jumper in KY. So...all in all that Paint mare did not produce super movers except for the Arab cross colt but her kids sure did jump well. Going the other way.....my WB mare jumped her fence and then the next one too into the pasture of my Paint stallion 2 years ago. The (mare is half TB WB and the stallion is a Paint that is 3/4 TB by the way....so a lot of TB in the mix betweent the 2 of them). I took that foal to AWR inspection as the mare was AWR registered and the colt scored slightly higher than his dam....so he certainly wasn't breeding "down". He sold as a yearling as a hunter prospect. So...after numerous such crosses most of them worked well for me. I only had one that came out as a throwback to the Paint stockier confo and honestly I don't think that one was the best matchup of trying to match up the mares flaws. Nothing against Duellglanz but I don't think he was the best match for the mares flaws....and the lady that bred her admitted to using him because she lived near him and basically he was convenient to her....never a good reason for choosing a mate. And at least the little bugger could jump, even if he wasn't the best mover. So....all in all if you are looking for a hunter/jumper type and you are already working with a TB type mare I think it would be a decent risk. Not so much if you are looking for the next dressage star. If you are looking at Indian Artifacts bred....then looks like you are looking for a hunter anyway. FWIW all my Paint x foals sold in the 5K range: 2 as weanlings, 3 as yearlings and 1 as a 3 YO. Not top dollar WB prices.....but were they marketable? yes.
                                          Providence Farm
                                          http://providencefarmpintos.blogspot.com/

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