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Catoki

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  • #21
    "You seem a bit peevish this AM, Jen! Sorry if my wish to contribute to the knowledge base about what kind of mare breeders are considering for Catoki has irritated you further!"

    1. Your foal has yet to hit the ground so it’s an unknown if that’s a good cross. People want facts, not hypotheticals.
    2. The amount of extraneous, self-aggrandizing information about your mare, her papers, the foals attendance at the KWPN Keuring is nausea-inducing.
    3. Some know more than others about horse purchases so again, the boastful claims really need to cease.
    "Sometimes you just have to shut up and color."

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    • #22
      WOW!, Jen, just WOW!

      I repeat, you do seem to be quite peevish this AM and we are sorry if we have contributed to your ill humour.
      Sakura Hill Farm
      Now on Facebook

      Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.

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      • #23
        Originally posted by Sakura Hill Farm View Post
        WOW!, Jen, just WOW!

        I repeat, you do seem to be quite peevish this AM and we are sorry if we have contributed to your ill humour.
        Michele, stop making this about me or my mood (which is just fine) because it's not about me. I know it is safe to say that my two posts summarize the sentiments of so very many on this board. You might want to think about that...
        "Sometimes you just have to shut up and color."

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by ponygirl View Post
          With all due respect, why do you feel it necessary to turn a thread about a stallion into a thread about your mare, what she's done, and who has her offspring? It's really getting old.
          I am going to have to agree with ponygirl. Your post on this topic reads like a total sales pitch. Less is more.
          Many people are able to post on here with contributions that do not always sound like a marketing scheme for whatever venture you have going on at the moment.
          Best wishes on your foal by Catoki, Sakura.

          Back to the subject of the topic, Does anyone else have anything to contribute about the sort of mare Catoki needs, or his produce? I found Alexandra's contribution very helpful. Thanks!

          Oh, and there are two Catoki sons on the Beerbaum website also.
          Tracy Geller
          www.sixpoundfarm.com
          Find me on Facebook!

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          • #25
            Julia du Brio is a scopey,large,big-boned old-fashioned mare. We waited until we had a mare like her before using the Contendro I FS as he is known to need size. The sale of the resulting colt to our trainer was made in cash and in services as frequently occurs between trainer and breeder with good stock. Upon John's insistence, we registered the foal, C. Holyoke S, Selle francais as, in his experience, KWPN smiles somewhat unfavorably upon NA-born stallion candidates and the colt is a stallion prospect for John to use on his Alexander-sired mares as well as publicly. Of course, this is all well known by those who are in the know. Because of the SF registration, the customary rating of the 2012 foal that we would have from KWPN is not available to those seeking to ascertain what kind of foals the mare that we have chosen for Catoki produces. Upon our own insistence, C. Holyoke S will be shown in the YHSs in 2013 as we too would like independent evaluation. Julia's future progeny will be registered with KWPN, our "home" registry, where those seeking to have an independent evaluation of her Catoki foal will have it available after the keuring. Knowing that this will be available is useful to those contemplating using Catoki. We were advised to use Julia with Catoki because, according to our own sources, he needs both size and scope in his mares. A discerning reader of my initial post will realize from our description of Julia that she fits this bill. (Just repeating what we have been advised) The foal should be born towards the end of April and we will be pleased to make photos and/or videos available to those who wish to evaluate our choice. Julia is not available for sale nor is her foal at this time. No sales pitch, this!

            We write about what enthuses us and do our best to stick to unemotional fact. Our choices enthuse us....YHS enthuses us...access to the SF registry here in NA enthuses us.... and yes, our choice of Ralando II for our mare Czola to produce a hunter enthuses us.

            We endeavor NOT to write about other people and their choices and certainly not about what is a source of pride to them. Eager students, we learn from everyone!

            I am sincerely happy to hear that your mood is fine, Jen. The tone came across to me as peevish....
            Last edited by Sakura Hill Farm; Feb. 10, 2013, 01:31 AM. Reason: clarification and completion
            Sakura Hill Farm
            Now on Facebook

            Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.

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            • #26
              Not sure if you all know that Catoki has been sold. Here is the link to the info:

              http://www.noellefloyd.com/catoki-an...chou-brothers/

              wonderful stallion and two very lucky teenagers!!
              It's not true that I had nothing on. I had the radio on.”
              ? Marilyn Monroe

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              • #27
                Originally posted by bluemoonfarms View Post
                Not sure if you all know that Catoki has been sold. Here is the link to the info:

                http://www.noellefloyd.com/catoki-an...chou-brothers/

                wonderful stallion and two very lucky teenagers!!
                Lucky indeed! Glad to know he'll still be standing.

                Comment


                • #28
                  I own two of Denise's Catoki x Contender babies now. They are both very pretty, well built, and not heavy or old fashioned. The mare (4yo) is not very tall, but is a nice type and seems to have a good jump. The colt (2012) I think will be a little taller than her but still a nice modern type. I'll attach a couple conformation photos. Sorry for the dark confo pic of the colt. It was taken the night we got him home. His is also the trot pic. Full siblings.
                  Attached Files
                  Destiny is not a matter of chance, it is a matter of choice; it is not a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be achieved. - William Jennings Bryan

                  http://www.halcyon-hill.com

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                  • #29
                    Forgive me for being a little superstitious about presuming any baby (human, horse etc) will be healthy until it is so ... but should we be so fortunate as to enjoy a healthy Catoki foal, I will also be happy to share pictures with those interested. The foal will not be for sale and the dam will never, ever, ever be for sale.

                    Just to share how we arrived at using Catoki should it be of interest to others considering him, we selected Catoki as (a) wanted Holsteiner Verband eligible stallion, (b) criteria "a" meant more choices using frozen semen, mare is older so needed it to be very good stuff, (c) mare is a bit old fashioned so hoped for some modernization though I'd be thrilled with her clone, (d) mare is a sensitive ride and her offspring to date have not been simple rides so we hoped for a quieter mind - or at least neutral in this regard, (e) our mare does throw tall so I am hoping that Catoki does not add much height, if any at all. There were other stallions on the list now residing in a tank for possible future use but Catoki was the one that "spoke" to us, which is how my advisor in Germany ultimately has us make such decisions.

                    I would also like to take this opportunity to thank Reece (aka Bayhawk) for being an amazing source of information and help throughout the years.
                    Last edited by drkarins; Feb. 6, 2013, 07:32 PM. Reason: clarfication

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                    • #30
                      We removed some of the self-promotional information from an earlier post that didn't directly relate to the original query to comply with our posting policies.

                      Thanks!
                      Mod 1

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                      • #31
                        Thanks for sharing the videos!! I think I am in love with him!! I am going to have him on the top of my list for 2014 as 2013 is already picked.
                        Elegant Expressions Farm

                        Visit us on Facebook too !!

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                        • #32
                          Originally posted by bluemoonfarms View Post
                          Not sure if you all know that Catoki has been sold. Here is the link to the info:

                          http://www.noellefloyd.com/catoki-an...chou-brothers/

                          wonderful stallion and two very lucky teenagers!!
                          Well, there has always been quite a rumour on him as of who owns him and who not, sold , not, standing at statud here, standing at stud there. I know a few jumper breeders that did not use him due to the logisitics in Germany. Who wants to breed to something were one does not know when, where, how to get semen of what quality. Nothing to do with the horse as such, just with what happened with it.

                          The information I posted stems from the FN database. This is not to be compared at all with any sporthorsedata or horsetelexdata at all. it is precise and accurate information as this is an official database where each and every horse that competes under saddle in Germany has to be entered as otherwise one will not be able to compete at all. In addition the database is fed with information from the breeding registries from their databeses.
                          It does not have info on offspring all over the workd, but at he is a german stallion I would guess most of his offspring are here and were born here.
                          I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
                          www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
                          2017: March: Filly by Lissaro - SPS Don Frederico - SPS Prince Thatch
                          May: Finnigan - Sandro Hit - SPS Rouletto

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                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            When Catoki's owner says he needs a "bigger" mare, does he mean tall mare, long legged, heavier mass (although Catoki doesn't seem to suffer in this department), longer frame, all of the above?
                            www.avenir-farm.com

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                            • #34
                              Just sharing a photo of Catoki´s dam, Bilda

                              http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/...psff79a5e0.jpg


                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by is_V View Post
                                Just sharing a photo of Catoki´s dam, Bilda

                                http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/...psff79a5e0.jpg


                                Thank you!! This picture is a very helpful and important tool to have!
                                Now developing Stone Clad Farms, visit us at www.facebook.com/StoneCladFarms

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                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by Sakura Hill Farm View Post
                                  We have a 2013 Catoki foal due out of our Julia du Brio ( Diamant Rouge x Kapoc) that had been imported and successfully competed by Peter Leone and one of his students.This should be quite the upper level prospect for an amateur or the pro and quite sizeable given that Julia is a good 17.3 and the older fashioned type mare. [edit]

                                  Interesting to hear. I knew Julia when I was riding with Peter. She was one of his mounts at the time.

                                  Interested to see this foal you're having :0)
                                  Hyperion Stud, LLC.
                                  Europe's Finest, Made in America
                                  WWW.HYPERIONSTUD.com
                                  Standing Elite and Approved Stallions

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                                  • #37
                                    Meaning taller. Catoki's dam is not quite 16 hands so he can give smaller horses.
                                    Suzanne
                                    bloomingtonfarm.com
                                    Breeder of Royal Dutch Sport Horse

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                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by is_V View Post
                                      Just sharing a photo of Catoki´s dam, Bilda

                                      http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/...psff79a5e0.jpg


                                      This is the greatest single piece of knowledge you could have shared !

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Catoki does not need tall mares because his mother is small. Catoki needs tall mares (if your goal is to produce tall horses) because his damline is small.

                                        Catoki needs tall mares because the long-run "normal" size of sport horses for the last 50-60 years is consolidated in Catoki's damline. What I mean by this is that 16 hands = 1.625 m is probably the "normal" or average or mean size of sport horses for the last 50 - 60 years, +/- 3 cm. And this is the expected size of mares in Catoki's damline. We see smaller horses all the time and we see larger horses all the time, but the mean in the population of sport horses is probably about 16 hands; this also appears to be the mean size of Catoki's direct damline. With studbook stallion inspection committees and breeders almost always preferring "bigger" stallions -- 169 cm and bigger -- over smaller stallions we may see the average size of sport horses increase in size in the next 50 years. But this will be a slow process of change.

                                        Why? Because by definition the mean size of about 16 hands is consolidated in the damline of the majority of breeding mares.

                                        If the data in horsetelex are correct, here are the sizes of the mares in Catoki's damline, starting with his dam Bilda:


                                        Bilda 1.63 m

                                        Vordula 1.69 m

                                        Limburg 1.63 m

                                        Gilda 1.60 m

                                        Oldmarie 1.63 m


                                        (horsetelex does not report the size of Bilda's other progeny, and especially the daughters and grand-daughters. That's a shame because it would be interesting to look at that data to "test" my theory.)

                                        Bilda is the product of Silvester (1.73 m) bred to Vordula (1.69 m). If you look at the mares in Catoki's damline Vordula was a "freak" -- a tall mare. But we see that the direct damline immediately reverted to the expected size of 1.63

                                        If a photo of Vordula had been shown and you were told Vordula had been bred to Silvester, and that was all the information you had, you probably would predict a 1.70 m daughter named Bilda (+/- 2 or 3 cm). But if you were also given the list of mares in the Bilda's damline and their sizes I do not think many of you would predict that Bilda would grow to 1.70 m +/- 2 or 3 cm. So a photo of the mother is only one piece of the puzzle. The sizes of the mares in the damline is what is most important.

                                        In my experience the size of a horse seems to be predicted more by the size of the horse's damline than by any other variable. In other words, along with athleticism and jumping ability I believe that size is strongly influenced by the damline. A breeder can use very tall stallions but if "small" (or actually, average size) is consolidated in the damline it may be a long process to reliably and predictably breed taller horses from that damline. (We will leave the effects of "regression to the mean" to another time.)
                                        Morningside Stud
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                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by tom View Post
                                          Catoki does not need tall mares because his mother is small. Catoki needs tall mares (if your goal is to produce tall horses) because his damline is small.

                                          Catoki needs tall mares because the long-run "normal" size of sport horses for the last 50-60 years is consolidated in Catoki's damline. What I mean by this is that 16 hands = 1.625 m is probably the "normal" or average or mean size of sport horses for the last 50 - 60 years, +/- 3 cm. And this is the expected size of mares in Catoki's damline. We see smaller horses all the time and we see larger horses all the time, but the mean in the population of sport horses is probably about 16 hands; this also appears to be the mean size of Catoki's direct damline. With studbook stallion inspection committees and breeders almost always preferring "bigger" stallions -- 169 cm and bigger -- over smaller stallions we may see the average size of sport horses increase in size in the next 50 years. But this will be a slow process of change.

                                          Why? Because by definition the mean size of about 16 hands is consolidated in the damline of the majority of breeding mares.

                                          If the data in horsetelex are correct, here are the sizes of the mares in Catoki's damline, starting with his dam Bilda:


                                          Bilda 1.63 m

                                          Vordula 1.69 m

                                          Limburg 1.63 m

                                          Gilda 1.60 m

                                          Oldmarie 1.63 m


                                          (horsetelex does not report the size of Bilda's other progeny, and especially the daughters and grand-daughters. That's a shame because it would be interesting to look at that data to "test" my theory.)

                                          Bilda is the product of Silvester (1.73 m) bred to Vordula (1.69 m). If you look at the mares in Catoki's damline Vordula was a "freak" -- a tall mare. But we see that the direct damline immediately reverted to the expected size of 1.63

                                          If a photo of Vordula had been shown and you were told Vordula had been bred to Silvester, and that was all the information you had, you probably would predict a 1.70 m daughter named Bilda (+/- 2 or 3 cm). But if you were also given the list of mares in the Bilda's damline and their sizes I do not think many of you would predict that Bilda would grow to 1.70 m +/- 2 or 3 cm. So a photo of the mother is only one piece of the puzzle. The sizes of the mares in the damline is what is most important.

                                          In my experience the size of a horse seems to be predicted more by the size of the horse's damline than by any other variable. In other words, along with athleticism and jumping ability I believe that size is strongly influenced by the damline. A breeder can use very tall stallions but if "small" (or actually, average size) is consolidated in the damline it may be a long process to reliably and predictably breed taller horses from that damline. (We will leave the effects of "regression to the mean" to another time.)
                                          Since you asked (sort of), I have a granddaughter of Bilda's by Rocadero, out of her daughter Loutana I by Loutano I. My mare is a good size at just under 16.2 with a medium, rectangular frame. She bears quite a resemblance to Catoki. She is a great mover and is very athletic but needs a stronger topline in a stallion and is very sensitive. Given Catoki's tendency to improve on both these characteristics (or so I'm told), I'd love to breed her back to Catoki. That might be a bit too much Bilda close up, though, especially as Rocadero is out of Bilda's grand dam, Limburg...

                                          As I am an eventer and prefer a slightly smaller, catty jumper to a big power jumper, the smaller size produced by the damline is less of a concern for me than it might be for some.
                                          Last edited by *Tradewind*; Feb. 10, 2013, 10:43 PM.

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