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Going "back" and using long deaceased sires...

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  • Going "back" and using long deaceased sires...

    The Donnerhall thread made me wonder about others views on this....


    The goal is to go forward and not backwards to acheive the modern horse. I think we all understand that. Are there ever exceptions to this rule?


    What long deceased sires would you consider going "back" to and using with your modern mares? Or would you never do this?

    Donnerhall, Rubinstein and Florestan would be one I'd use provided I had the right modern mare for them.
    Fresh, Frozen & ISO Warmblood Breedings FB Group

  • #2
    I too have been thinking about this as I have toyed with the idea of breeding to Brentano II, whom I consider an "oldie but a goodie". Most recently his son Benetton Dream is not only doing fantastic in sport but also proving to be a great sire. No one considers him "modern" in look, but none the less is stellar.

    Also, Weltmeyer I think is a stallion that can still produce a horse that can be successful by todays standards. So he is another one I still keep on my stallion list.

    Brentano II and Weltmeyer have very good frozen semen so are a viable option.
    Read about my time at the Hannoveraner Verband Breeders Courses:
    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2011.html
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    • #3
      Florestan for sure. He did not produce that old fashion like Donnerhall did. Donnerhall would be my second choice.

      Comment


      • #4
        Lemon Tree or Lemon Park (may still be alive, but not active), Feiner Stern, Trapper, and Chagall
        Last edited by Derid; Feb. 2, 2013, 10:05 AM. Reason: thought of two more

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        • #5
          We have some Rubinstein that we expect to use with our Czola to produce a hunter broodmare for ourselves and some Raphael that we would like to use with an imported German TB from the foundation TB blood (Kris, etc.) ( German female family #1) that has been used so successfully in Germany. Czola is very modern and quite refined---the German TB mare is, well, a TB with excellent hunter-y movement.
          Sakura Hill Farm
          Now on Facebook

          Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.

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          • #6
            I guess types change faster in dressage than in jumping. I would kill to use Voltaire and I would not consider that to be going back in time.
            ~~~~~~~

            This is not an ad because I have absolutely no connection with the farm or the horse, but I looked at a lovely filly by Der Graf, a son of Donnerhall. She was dressage on top and jumping on the bottom and will make an awesome beautiful 10 moving, scopey jumping hunter. Best of both worlds. If I was a breeder, I would breed Der Graf to a mare with jumping bloodlines and hope I would get such lovely offspring.
            "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

            Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump

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            • #7
              if i'm not mistaken the holsteiner verband will be making some cor de la bryere semen available in the usa shortly.
              Hidden Pearl Farm

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              • #8
                Sorry to hi jack this thread, but this question somewhat pertains to this.

                Does the quality of semen suffer as the stallion gets older? I remember reading an article from Morningside stud, who do not use semen from stallions that are older than 16 years.

                I am curious what others think about this.
                PMS: Pissed-off Mare Syndrome
                _______________________________________________
                http://marshallfarms.ca/
                http://www.facebook.com/marshallfarms.ca

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by LadyLox View Post
                  Sorry to hi jack this thread, but this question somewhat pertains to this.

                  Does the quality of semen suffer as the stallion gets older? I remember reading an article from Morningside stud, who do not use semen from stallions that are older than 16 years.

                  I am curious what others think about this.
                  It depends on the stallion. I can't imagine Tom would make a blanket statement like that, because it's simply not correct. There are plenty of stallions over the age of 16 who are still producing excellent semen -- even the frozen stuff. Now, if he'd said over 20 or 21, I might agree...

                  BTW, it's funny this thread should come up. I recently discovered a broker in Europe who has Tin Rocco frozen. This stallion was modern before modern existed...in fact, he helped create "modern". He had close to perfect conformation and was a successful jumper & producer of same.

                  When I found out about the frozen, I was (am) VERY tempted.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by LadyLox View Post
                    Sorry to hi jack this thread, but this question somewhat pertains to this.

                    Does the quality of semen suffer as the stallion gets older? I remember reading an article from Morningside stud, who do not use semen from stallions that are older than 16 years.

                    I am curious what others think about this.
                    I do not believe I ever made or wrote this statment. After a certain point fertility tends to decline with age but there seems to be to be a fair degree of variability across stallions.

                    I purchased both Ekstein and Desir du Chateau when they both were about 15 years old. And I often use older stallions as I am not convinced at all about the "continous improvement" argument, and especially when it comes to athleticism.
                    Last edited by tom; Feb. 4, 2013, 09:18 AM. Reason: missing word
                    Morningside Stud
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                    • #11
                      I am very prone to using the older stallions such as Donnerhall, Rubinstein, Florestan. They are what my program hopes to produce-----Grand Prix prospects. If you look at the pedigrees of the most succesful horses today at the top of their sport, you can see what I mean. Most of them have these wonderful horses very close.
                      The so called "modern" horse has yet to CONSISTANTLY produce the athlete that holds up to the testof the sport
                      Maryanna Haymon- Marydell Farm - Home to Don Principe & Doctor Wendell MF
                      www.marydellfarm.com
                      2012 USDF Champion Breeder! 2007, 2011 USEF Champ Breeder
                      2009,2010,2011 USDF Res Breeder of the Year!

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
                        It depends on the stallion. I can't imagine Tom would make a blanket statement like that, because it's simply not correct. There are plenty of stallions over the age of 16 who are still producing excellent semen -- even the frozen stuff. Now, if he'd said over 20 or 21, I might agree...
                        It would be interesting for someone to do some actual research into this as far as genetics are concerned since there are studies that link older human fathers to genetic problems. I imagine when you refer to "quality" you mean the ability to get a mare pregnant, but there are additional issues with sperm from older people.
                        http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...rs-pass-on-mor

                        It points to it being "safer" to use frozen sperm from younger men, than fresh from older men. I wonder at what point this applies to horses (if at all)?
                        On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

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                        • #13
                          And Grande, can someone reincarnate Grande?
                          On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

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                          • #14
                            Certainly not a scientific study, but TB stallions who have been in the top ten on the list (ranked by progeny earnings) year after year, tend to slide down the list as they age (after about 17).

                            In many cases it is probably because younger stallions become the flavor of the day, but stallions such as Northern Dancer (stud fee $1,000,000 in his later years), Storm Cat ($500,000) and AP Indy ($350,000) still were getting top mares and yet their foals were not as successful as they had been a decad prior.

                            Since TB's are bred for one trait (speed) and their training is fairly standard over the decades (horses are still being pinfired because "I've always done it that way") and they always breed live cover (no chance of degradation of fresh or frozen semen), many of the variabloes that might skew the sample in sport horses do not exist in TB's.

                            So, IMH, it is a decent enough group and sampling to show that semen does degrade as stallions age.
                            "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

                            Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tom View Post
                              ....I often use older stallions as I am not convinced at all about the "continous improvement" argument, and especially when it comes to athleticism.
                              tom,

                              i find this interesting and wonder if you might consider developing this thought further, whether here or on your blog.

                              there are arguments in each direction, but perhaps what i find most interesting is that you seem not to feel that athleticism - perhaps as opposed to phenotype - can be enhanced to a degree which warrants all the effort which goes into identifying the next generation of breeding animals.

                              while i suspect you are not advocating for 'breeding backwards' your observation is that progress is too slow, non-existant, comes at too high a price with all that stallion selection entails, or..?
                              Hidden Pearl Farm

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Lord Helpus View Post
                                I guess types change faster in dressage than in jumping. I would kill to use Voltaire and I would not consider that to be going back in time.
                                ~~~~~~~

                                This is not an ad because I have absolutely no connection with the farm or the horse, but I looked at a lovely filly by Der Graf, a son of Donnerhall. She was dressage on top and jumping on the bottom and will make an awesome beautiful 10 moving, scopey jumping hunter. Best of both worlds. If I was a breeder, I would breed Der Graf to a mare with jumping bloodlines and hope I would get such lovely offspring.
                                Which daughter? Just curious, I've been to Solomon and am familiar with quite a few Der Grafs being in the area "i.e. 4-5 hour drive."

                                I would use a long deceased stallion if I had the right mare and it was the best cross. Some of those mentioned do not have sons that have stamped the sport the way the original sire has. There are several recently deceased stallions I would (and will) also use. I think you have to examine how the best offspring of that stallion would do in competition today? We have to make sure the sport hasn't evolved past that stallion's contributions. Eventing is another example with the format change--I have read commentary by several discussing the increasing focus on the dressage phase.
                                DIY Journey of Remodeling the Farmette: http://weownblackacre.blogspot.com/

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                                • #17
                                  I Agree with Tom: "I often use older stallions as I am not convinced at all about the "continous improvement" argument"
                                  And as an example: Galoubet A who sired Taloubet Z at age 27 (with fresh or cooled, cause Galoubet couldn't freeze)
                                  So I would use an old and proven stallion over the 3y/o winner of any korung.
                                  "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster, And treat those two imposters just the same"
                                  Rudyard Kipling
                                  Quartz Rouge

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by TrotTrotPumpkn View Post
                                    Which daughter? Just curious, I've been to Solomon and am familiar with quite a few Der Grafs being in the area "i.e. 4-5 hour drive."
                                    She is a 2010 model -- Desire SF. Had I been looking for a hunter prospect, I would have grabbed her right up.

                                    How often does a dressage stallion, when crossed with a jumper-bred mare come out with a foal destined for the hunter ring??
                                    "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

                                    Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      I would love to use one of the old Gelderlander stallions.
                                      Kanoe Godby
                                      www.dyrkgodby.com
                                      See, I was raised by wolves and am really behind the 8-ball on diplomatic issue resolution.

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by ne1 View Post
                                        tom,

                                        i find this interesting and wonder if you might consider developing this thought further, whether here or on your blog.

                                        there are arguments in each direction, but perhaps what i find most interesting is that you seem not to feel that athleticism - perhaps as opposed to phenotype - can be enhanced to a degree which warrants all the effort which goes into identifying the next generation of breeding animals.

                                        while i suspect you are not advocating for 'breeding backwards' your observation is that progress is too slow, non-existant, comes at too high a price with all that stallion selection entails, or..?
                                        Nick, you are reading me correctly and also reading my mind about the implications of this view for studbook policies. Perhaps I should write something...
                                        Morningside Stud
                                        http://www.morningside-stud.com
                                        http://twitter.com/MorningsideStud
                                        http://www.facebook.com/MorningsideStud

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