• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Horse Starting/Problem Horse

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Original Poster

    #21
    Originally posted by DLee View Post
    I would try to find someone of Buck Brannaman's school of horsemanship. Mindy Bower, or Betty Staley, someone like that.
    tried sending you a pm but your inbox is full!

    Comment


    • #22
      Having had some issues in this area with one of my horses, I would make absolutely sure that the saddle fits properly. This requires a trained, up to date, professional. Dawn Anderson,of Anderson Equine is one I really have a lot of confidence in.
      If distance is not an issue, Natalie Rooney,of Four Star Farm, in Woodland, California is terrific.She is in the Sacramento area. Her training is focused on the personality of the individual horse, considerate of the horse's needs, no gadgets, no cookie cutter approach.
      I have a young horse in training with her right now and, to quote Natalie she rides her "like the mare likes to be ridden". The results of this approach are undeniable.
      It took me a while to find Natalie, I could not be happier.
      Good luck !
      http://sporthorsesnw.com/
      https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sport...01526589966216

      Comment


      • #23
        Absolutely hands down you need Jose Alejos. See www.josealejos.com and www.equestriancoach.com (Master Horseman recommended by Bernie Traurig and Linda Allen). He starts horses for La Silla in Monterrey, Mexico and for Branscomb Farm in Half Moon Bay, CA and Maplewood Stables (Julie Winkel's barn). He is the modern Ray Hunt and Gene Lewis rolled into one. He has started some for us with excellent results. We had one bucker who was a rescue and he corrected him in just few days and that horse has remained a solid citizen ever since. You will not be disappointed. Jose guarantees his results.

        Comment


        • #24
          I should add he corrected one at Rusty Stewart's barn also that they were at wits end with. Jose is the real deal.

          Comment


          • #25
            You said you had the vet out and he did chiro and Accu. For what? Was a full lameness exam done? Saddle fitting on youngsters can sometimes be a nightmare. They change as the muscle up and develop. Also since this is a mare, next time vet is out, take a look inside just to rule out issues that could arise there.

            She is either in pain or she's just developed a serious bad habit. This is not to be confused with quirky. She has learned that was she does puts an end to work. And if I thought for one second all the bucking I see from my youngsters before they start U/S equated to the same in tack, none of mine would be riding. Get that notion out of your head. That's somewhat excusing why she bucks. I have yet, in all the horses we've started of various breeds, had any of them buck anybody off. Not when we had them or when they left. Including my warmblood/TB cross who is beyond quirky.

            Just for clarification, did she do this at the other place? Was she fine for a bit at your place and then started the bucking? When she's bucked you off, is the session then over? I don't know the people mentioned as I'm not in the States but COTH is pretty good at weeding out the good from the bad. At the moment you need to not worry about anything other than getting this sorted. I would leave her completely off until she goes to new trainer. Otherwise behavoir will just be reinforced. I mean what I say about us never having buckers. Not saying they haven't thought about it, it's just never been allowed. Pure instinct from years of having been bucked off in all manners of ways. I'm old now, I don't fly as well as I used to.

            Terri
            COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

            "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

            Comment


            • #26
              Sent you a Facebook message.
              The rebel in the grey shirt

              Comment


              • #27
                From personal experience, having started multiple horses, it is so much easier if you give them more time to grow up. When I first started breeding and training young horse I thought I had to get them going by 3. Now a days, at 3 my horses are just hanging out, growing, and learning nice grown manners, living in a herd condition so they learn how to be a horse. Then at 4 or even 5 I start them. And what at 3 was a test and a struggle becomes easy breezy. I have found the fastest way to ruin a good youngster is to ask too much of it at too young of an age. And in my experience welshes and warmbloods take the longest to grow up.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Some horses are wicked smart and-- assuming she is not in pain-- she may have just learned how to get a rider off so will just repeat the successful move. It really does not sound like she was over worked but-again assuming she is not in pain-- she needs someone that can consistently stay on her and keep her moving forward when she does her "move."

                  (I confess, I once used a pelham on that type--just so I could keep the head up and not get bucked off-he learned that dropping the head between his knees would cause the curb to tighten without me having to move my hands-otherwise he was on the snaffle part-- so he in effect was doing it to himself and stopped it. )

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Agree with Snowfox! Many at 3 are just not ready mentally to learn in the extended way that daily training demands. There is a big leap in their mental and physical maturity from 3 to 4 to 5. Their spine is not ossified until 6 or even 7 sometimes so weight carrying before then has some risk. Starting them at 4 or 5 makes it very easy if a bit of groundwork has been completed.

                    But it sounds from the OP's description that the bucking is a bad habit at this point in time. Horses can smell fear and it sounds like this horse has people backed off.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Sent you a PM, hope it helps.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Honestly...that sounds like a pain reaction. Did you have her back and hocks xrayed?

                        Assuming that isn't...she does need forward installed in a big way.
                        At just turning 4--she could still be growing. Some of them, especially mares, get pissy if their balance is off. She is clearly saying she isn't ready to canter in the ring either mentally or physically. Doesn't matter what you expect...or what the vast majority of horses are ready for....it is HER that matters. Pushing or forcing it rarely gets you there any faster. Not meaning you do nothing with her, just change your short term goals and expectations. It is a strength issue as much as anything and it takes time....some quite a bit of time. Personally, I'd send her off to where she is worked outside the ring....maybe even on cattle or fox hunting to keep it interesting. Let her grow up a bit more and get stonger before pushing the cantering in the ring issue. It is easier for them to get forward out of the ring and some are not ready to come into the ring at her age.
                        ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Send the horse to a cowboy. I had the same problem with my WB (except that I got no canter before the bronc bucking started.)

                          He was a tough case (boy did I kinow that), so it took 4 months before I was even allowed to ride him.

                          The cowboy I sent him to specialized in problem horses. He had a 16.2h "pony" horse and Petey had his head tied to the pommel of that horse's saddle. (wrapping the 1" thick rope around the horn so he could always be let loose if there was a problem). No way could he get his head down to buck. No way could he stop when he wanted to. He learned that he was not king and could not make his own rules.

                          Western riders have an entirely different take on horses and they do not allow misbehaving. Period. Some cowboys will throw the horse and hog tie him and sit on him until he stops struggling. (would never use such a cowboy). Others have a "tie donkey" -- the problem horse is tied to the donkey and has to go where ever the donkey goes. He can only drink when the donkey drinks, he lies down when the donkey lies down. It usually only takes a couple days for the horse to realize that he is not the center of the universe and there are rules he must obey. I would check on a cowboy's methods for the attitude adjustment, and if you agree with them, go with that guy.

                          The cowboy does not want the owner around during this period, and I did not want to be around. Like sausage, I did not want to know what went into the final product.

                          But I went from a horse which was unridable to a horse who was a real team player. And as a lovely by product of the training, he knew his leads and bending and lateral work.
                          "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

                          Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            If you have definitely ruled out a pain/medical issue then she probably needs a different type of approach then what she is getting now. Much like Lord Helpus, I had a difficult one. A very big, very strong 4 year old gelding. Very old-style and cold-blooded in type and mind. Tons of groundwork, super solid in that regard, never gave anyone a bit of trouble. First time put a leg over him he BLEW UP. Sent him to the person who regularly puts a few months on my horses (one of the best young horse trainers in the country, tons of young horse experience both here and Germany) and every time she got on the horse he either blew up bucking, or bolted with no regard to his personal safety. You could sit on the horse, hang over the horse, put anything on him (we thought it was a fear issue at first) with no issues. Bomb-proof on the ground but dangerous as soon as you put a leg over him. After 3 months of that, we brought him home. Decided to send him to a local amish trainer (before everyone freaks out, he isn't the "typical" amish horse trainer that everyone is always telling horror stories about) who started over in the round pen. We were going to see if he could be a driving horse, b/c it looked like riding wasn't in the cards. And, at the risk of being flamed, euthanasia was a possibility if he wasn't going to be safe doing some type of job. Two weeks later, went to visit him and not only was he driving, but he was W-T-C on a loose rein. A week after that I rode him myself. When we brought him home a month later I continued riding him until he was sold. He turned out to be the quietest, most-broke, bomb-proof horse I've had yet. Traffic, livestock, dogs, farm-equipment,hacking on roads, across country, even by himself he was absolutely safe and solid. Now he's packing an adult amateur around the jumper ring. I don't know what was done to him, nor did I want to know at that point, but it was practically miraculous. And it was, literally, his last chance. Never in my wildest dreams did I think that he would make a riding horse, and it made me eat my words about ever sending a young horse to a "cowboy" type trainer. Sometimes you have to explore other methods.
                            Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
                            https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              You might consider me
                              Andras @ www.prairiepinesfarm.com
                              Andras
                              http://www.prairiepinesfarm.com
                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4SfHHhoc_8
                              http://www.andrasszieberthtraining.blogspot.com

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                "Sometimes you have to explore other methods." Hillside H Ranch
                                An open mind is sometimes the best training tool.
                                www.forwardfarms.com.
                                Follow us on Facebook:
                                http://www.facebook.com/pages/Forwar...s/192796641203

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Roddy Strang is the best in the country. Located near Lancaster PA. "The" guy sporthorse people send problem horses to.
                                  "The sea was angry that day, my friends - like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli"

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    We have a fabulous guy who breaks ALL of ours, and the accent is always forward. When he says they are ready, our show rider, who loves riding the youngsters and getting in their heads, takes over and takes them as far as the owner wants them to go. Both of these people are exceptional at their jobs. And it all takes place under Junior's supervision.
                                    Laurie

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      I would make an appointment with Jochem Schleese myself. Far as I can determine from what you say, this mare finds the saddle blocks her at the canter and won't put up with it. She's gone from refusing to go to now bucking the rider off, because no one understand's what she's trying to say.

                                      Hate to say it, but 99.999% of all riders/trainers/vets/chiropractors have no idea whether a saddle fits or not- and Jochem has done the research and the innovation to determine what does fit.

                                      My 3 year old started to give me the same signs as this mare- thank God I was lucky enough to attend a lecture by JS the next weekend and I then did quite a bit of investigating what he had to offer. I took the plunge and even with a loaner saddler in the interim the results are phenominal. No more issues with my young horse, and my older horse who I was on the verge of retiring because of cascading soundness issues is now going better and sounder every single day- and doing work which he has never been able to do before.

                                      Of course, I was able to change the saddle on my young horse BEFORE he learned to defend himself by rearing and bucking and it became a habit. Your mare is well past that, and you cannot expect that a saddle change will now be a miracle. However, if you do decide that saddle fit is the issue, and correct it, I would simply ride her at the walk and trot until she decides herself to offer more. A small amount of patience at her age is nothing in the long run, and a new saddle is considerably cheaper than sending her somewhere to another "fixer" trainer.

                                      By the way, I utterly disagree that 3 year olds should not be ridden and in work for a variety of reasons. It's much healthier for them to be doing a job for their overall soundness and mental health, and it's considerably easier for the rider to start a coming 3 year old if they are skilled in starting youngsters. My 3 1/2 year old is in full training at an appropriate level for his age, and he just grew another inch this winter, so what? He has learned a ton in the last 7 months under saddle, not just riding things either- he has developed a lot of confidence in himself and me, faced lots of new and unexpected situations, and that is also a large part of training babies. It's not just w/t/c, it's learning about his life as a riding horse, and ultimately, a show horse. It's great for him, as it is for every young horse.

                                      I don't believe in is keeping a horse in a stall, especially youngsters. I have the option of keeping my horses in very large paddocks, together, and it is quite ideal. It is very unfortunate that this is the rarity, and stalls are the usual, because it is like keeping a child in a jail cell to me. For all horses, but especially the youngsters, the ability to buck and roll and walk without the rider keeps them safe under saddle, plus the older horses enforce discipline as well. I'm too old to hit the ground anymore, so why stack the deck in the favor of misbehavior?

                                      I wish you the best with your mare, no matter what you decide.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Be interested to see the response as to whether she did this at the trainers?
                                        I have horse to sell to you. Horse good for riding. Can pull cart. Horse good size. Eats carrots and apples. Likes attention. Move head to music. No like opera! You like you buy.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Without seeing this in person, my gut is saying saddle fit issue since it is just at the canter and you say she is sweet with everything else. I would have an excellent, professional saddle fitter out.

                                          If you have done the above, then it is probably a really-bad-habit.

                                          I am also wondering if she did this to the trainer?
                                          DIY Journey of Remodeling the Farmette: http://weownblackacre.blogspot.com/

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X