• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Why do clones have different markings?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Why do clones have different markings?

    I was just looking at pictures of Sapphire and her two 3 year old clones and each has a different blaze. Anyone know why? I thought a clone would be a duplicate.

  • #2
    Markings are part genetic, part environmental.....

    Jennifer
    Third Charm Event Team

    Comment


    • #3
      Because although they have identical genes, those genes can be expressed differently. To greatly simplify this idea - two horses may have the same color genes for a chestnut coat, but they will be different shades of red. The clones all have the same genes which determine that they will have a blaze, but the exact shape and size can differ. And yes, for markings there can be some environmental factors as well (in utero).
      Flickr

      Comment


      • #4
        No idea if it's "exact" or not, but I was always told that the general marking was genetic, the end product a factor of liquid swirling in the womb as the cells were forming.
        If A equals success, then the formula is: A = X + Y + Z, X is work. Y is play. Z is keep your mouth shut. - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #5
          Epigenetic markers....the same reason my identical twin sons don't look exactly alike:

          http://www.sciencenewsforkids.org/20...en-from-birth/

          Comment


          • #6
            It's not the same as the shade of color - those genetics are pure genetics (though diet/environment could make them look a bit different at times due to sun exposure or not, sufficient nutrition or not, etc). Liver is liver, that comes from inside.

            But the uterine environment is thought strongly to play some role in the shape and general size of white markings. But the clones are still going to have a blaze, of sorts, if the original did, still going to have white legs if the original did. But the size and placement can vary a bit.

            Top Gun had 3 white legs - his clone, Cryozootech Top Gun, has 4

            But an original with a little star and nothing else isn't going to sprout a clone who has white legs and a big ol' belly splotch
            ______________________________
            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't think anyone knows what actually leads to the position and extent of white markings on horses. I've read that it has to do with the migration..or lack thereof...of melanocytes (the pigmented skin cells) to the distal part of the limb bud during early development. If they don't make it all the way out there and proliferate, parts of teh body are unpigmented (white). The same probably directs melanocyte migration to the in the head. White patches = lack of melanocytes. Errors in directions to these cells cause white spots. As people who bred horses liked white patches, these coat patterns stayed in the gene pool. They're definitely inherited.

              The answer, though, is differences in gene expression in a cell. Clones have identical DNA, but the way the DNA is transcribed to RNA, and the way the RNA is translated to making a protein, can be specific to the cell. There are epigenetic factors - basically, chemicals that adhere to certain parts of the genome - that dictate NOT whether the DNA is there, but how often the DNA is read to make RNA and how efficiently that is made into functional proteins. Think about a fertilized egg. It divides into two cells, then 4 cells, then 8 cells, then 16 cells, then 32 cells, etc. Every time the cell divides, it has to make a perfect copy of its DNA. The cell machinery isn't always perfect and little changes in DNA can occur. Also, those chemicals that can affect gene expression can get added or subtracted as cells divide. Many of them, however, are passed on to the daughter cells. That's how identical cells can have different levels of gene expression, and how people and horses and dogs with identical DNA can express that DNA differently and have unique physical features.

              People used to say that differences in mare markings are due to the mare's womb, becuase two identical twins can have different markings. But twins from the same horse can have different markings and I think our understanding of genetics and epigenetics has evolved greatly since those first articles were published in the 80s and 1990.
              Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Thanks guys, very informative!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Did a story on this and was told by a genetics expert that what is inherited is the tendency to have white markings. Where they end up is due to conditions in the womb.
                  co-author of
                  Duel for the Crown: Affirmed, Alydar, and Racing's Greatest Rivalry
                  www.duelforthecrown.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Can someone post a link to a pic? I'd love to see!
                    Destiny is not a matter of chance, it is a matter of choice; it is not a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be achieved. - William Jennings Bryan

                    http://www.halcyon-hill.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Here's the best picture I know. Smart Little Lena top, and his 5 clones as foals
                      http://justthinking.us/sites/default...a%20Clones.jpg

                      Here they are as youngsters
                      http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-yeb_22Wllw...a%2Bclones.jpg
                      ______________________________
                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JB View Post
                        Here's the best picture I know. Smart Little Lena top, and his 5 clones as foals
                        http://justthinking.us/sites/default...a%20Clones.jpg

                        Here they are as youngsters
                        http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-yeb_22Wllw...a%2Bclones.jpg
                        How interesting!! They DO all have the same ears, though...
                        "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."

                        "It's supposed to be hard...the hard is what makes it great!" (Jimmy Dugan, "A League of Their Own")

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Another great article about this phenomenon:

                          http://theamericanscholar.org/my-for...medium=twitter

                          As mentioned above, I have identical, er well, monozygotic, twin sons, so this has been a topic of special interest for me.

                          Enjoy!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dr. Doolittle View Post
                            How interesting!! They DO all have the same ears, though...
                            That's the 1st thing I noticed too, there ears were identical!! And their head shape too looked similar even without the same markings.
                            Kris
                            www.edgewoodmeadowfarm.com
                            Like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/edgewoodmeadowfarm

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Those things SHOULD be (nearly) identical
                              ______________________________
                              The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by SportArab View Post
                                Did a story on this and was told by a genetics expert that what is inherited is the tendency to have white markings. Where they end up is due to conditions in the womb.
                                That's based on an old study. We know so much more about genetics, epigenetics, and cell biology than the late 80's. Who was your genetics expert?
                                Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by J-Lu View Post
                                  That's based on an old study. We know so much more about genetics, epigenetics, and cell biology than the late 80's. Who was your genetics expert?
                                  Actually, this would have been in the late 90s early 2000s. Unfortunately, don't have access to the story anymore due to several computer meltdowns.
                                  co-author of
                                  Duel for the Crown: Affirmed, Alydar, and Racing's Greatest Rivalry
                                  www.duelforthecrown.com

                                  Comment

                                  Working...
                                  X